The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: yankieGirl on August 11, 2011, 12:30:47 pm
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Read this if you have the guts to face the truth! We need to know where we are in order to get back on the right track.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html)
I hope I did that correctly.
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I holeheartedly concur with this article. it makes me really mad!!!.
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I opened the link with trepidation - another Daily Mail rant. But actually, the article rings true (regretably). So that's where we are. That bit is reasonably easy. The hard bit is what to do about it. I've just finished a series of historical novels, and I think the article is correct - what we've seen in the last few days is a repeat of similar actions over centuries. The peasants are revolting against their masters. Except now they don't starve to death, get typhoid, get hung or transported. In one of the novels, set in the 1850s, the "masters" are debating ways of improving the lot of the "peasants" - some want to introduce better housing, better health care, unemployment and sickness benefit. Others see this as a dangerous removal of the working man's responsibility to look after his family and therefore making him dependent and taking away his pride. Ho, hum, so here we are.
I know some folk have said send them to Afghanistan - bit of a knee jerk - but it would deplete the Taliban's ammunition stocks, for sure. But maybe National Service would be a good thing - for ALL young people, not just those deemed to be ruffians. They would learn self discipline, maybe get some eductaion and maybe actually enjoy learning and get a bit of self pride. There would be more social mixing so less of an underclass - if you are in uniform, you're all the same - no designer trainers, so it doesn't matter where you came from or how much dosh your folks have, you're all in it together. Just a thought ;D
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Anyone leaving school without enough education to get a job and be a worthwhile member of their community should go into a' training camp' run by the military.
Get them off benefits,drugs,booze and stealing whatever they want and into a life where they have to get up in the morning and work all day like normal people do.
Roll this idea out for older jobless and unemployable.
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The fix must start with the traditional family.
What has changed over the centuries? There's always been the haves and the have nots. There's always been cycles of joblessness. Etc...
Society is concentric circles radiating out and the family is the intermost circle. It is what civilizes (or not) the children and polices its own ranks (Anytime my two left the house they were told, "remember, you represent the insert last name family").
The outermost circles are not equipped to deal with the individual. And when we think the "experts" can do better than than the family (no matter how well intentioned) we end up where we are today.
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then explain why one of the first in court was the child of millioniares. it appears that a reasonable number of rioters are not from your typical broken home. ps yankie girl the mail is a right wing news paper it operates on the right of the tory party.
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There is a lot of truth in that article, albeit couched in right wing scaremongering. The portrayal of these "deprived" kids as animals is supposed to instill fear of them in us and, I suspect, allow us to treat them as less than human.
As usual Max Hastings supplies no answers to any of the problems he highlights.
What can we (not them, we) do? These are the parents of the next generation, and that too is a scary thought. What kind of parents are they going to make? How do we stop this being a self perpetuating cycle?
I certainly think that, although it starts in the home, school is the first chance "society" gets to affect the lives of most children and dicipline in school is something we must have back at all costs. We also need to address the fact that there are not (and never will be) jobs available for a lot of these young people. Why can't work be found for them whereby they have to work for their benefit payments? If they don't complete their quota, no payment. Maybe some of them would then start to think that if they're going to have to work anyway they may as well try to find paid work.
Where are the politicians saying this sort of thing? We hear talk of clamping down, of curfews, of police presence on the streets, but nothing of a real solution
I have little or no time for any political party, they're all out for themselves, but for goodness sake, surely one of them can come up with some solutions.
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then explain why one of the first in court was the child of millioniares. it appears that a reasonable number of rioters are not from your typical broken home.
The animalism is not a function of economic class.
Rich are pumping out kids then hoping someone else civilizes their spawn. These kids are just "cleaner" looking animals.
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then explain why one of the first in court was the child of millioniares. it appears that a reasonable number of rioters are not from your typical broken home. ps yankie girl the mail is a right wing news paper it operates on the right of the tory party.
Slightly right of Attila the Hun, I think ;D
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What does "to the right" mean over there. What does your "right" advocate that you disagree with?
Here, I am Tea Party right.
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Well, the Mail is verging on Facism!
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We no longer have the extended family.
Where ( rarely now ) there are two parents in the household they are probably both working , so we end up with latch key kids. We no longer have Gran living in the same street to run to, we used to have uncles and aunts round the corner we could turn to, or even go to the neighbour next door if mum was out. Now they don't even live in the same town and the neighbours don't want to know you.
Councils used to have truant officers walking the towns to make sure kids were in school, I got stopped by one once because I was being taken to the dentist by my mother, we had to prove to him that we had an appointment. You respected teachers , you got caned (or the torse ) if you misbehaved in class.
Now successive social ' reformers ' have given kids ' Rights ' tied the hands of the Police with red tape , taken away the teachers power over their students. and told us this will make a better world...yeah right... If you say so.
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Well, the Mail is verging on Facism!
Thanks, good to know.
Now can we deal with the substance of the article. :)
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Let me take a moment to explain to Yankygirl what we meen by right wing. starting on the Left: Trotsky, Lennin, any trade union leader , Ken Livingston, then in the middle ground you have the liberal party and other great roaring poufters, then moving to the right we have Hitler, Attila the Hun, the KKK, then Maggie Thatcher, Poll Pot, Then way over there if you have a good pair of Binoculars or the hubble telescope you might get a fleeting glimpse of me .
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for someone with an iq of 167, your spelling is awful! ;D
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Gotta love Tizaala's political spectrum :D
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The Labour Party are the 'left', the Conservatives are the 'right', and the Liberal Democrats supposedly somewhere in between. Don't know how you'd map that onto the USA's two-party system where both sides appear to be right-wing to me.
Tony Blair = Left, Maggie Thatcher = Right.
I remember some years ago now an american friend commenting upon how bad it was that France has elected a socialist government, and how the Brit's wouldn't do that. I had to point out that Britain at the time had a socialist prime minister, Tony Blair. The look on his face was priceless.
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for someone with an iq of 167, your spelling is awful! ;D
That's why I use spell check ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You really want to be a socialist country? (I know we are heading there if we haven't already arrived)
Did you ever read The Road To Serfdom?
This is especially eye opening because you folks are dirty handers like me. Pigs, chickens, cows, goats...crops, gardens...
Who convinced so many of you that scores of people CAN'T help themselves but you (special people?) can? Why expect so little of others?
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its not that i/we think i/we are special, just that we at least had an opportunity to improve our lot. politically my views are to the right, i believe in a fair days pay for a fair days work. there really isnt that opportunity for these kids. i had my first job at 13, and payed for my own school uniform, books , dinners from then on, my single mother was unable to. i left home at 16 straight into a job in a chicken factory, then as the last recession kicked in was made redundant at 19, along with many of my peers. there HAS to be available emplyment, our countrys economy isnt built on work anymore its built on finance and 'service' which basically means everyone is 'serving ' each other. nothing is 'made' anymore.
the attitude of 'i want without working for it' is due to the medias constant thrust towards celebrity, personally i blame 'hiphop' music!!!! ;D
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Well Deepinthewoods thats what fingers that can't keep up with the brain do for you. I forgot to mention that I was your classic underachiever. Deliberately failed my 11+ because I knew the parents could not afford to send me to grammar school. Hated my secondary school because they were only interested in turning out factory fodder, Woodwork and metalwork were double lessons twice a week for the boys followed by technical drawing. So they churned out patternmakers and sheet metal workers for the sweatshops of the industrial Midlands,
I had to teach myself a bit of physics to do a C&G Radio Ham exam (Pass & Credit) went on to take the Morse code exam and got my ''A'' licence. The teachers trying to cope with classes of up to 30 kids could not be bothered with the very bright , or, the very dull kids ( don't ask questions I don't know the answer to!)was one reply I got. So you sit there bored out of your tree until you are fifteen and start work the day after you leave, But my spelling is probably better than most of the street rats we are writing about , and you probably got the gist of it.
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I got this from a diagram in "Information is Beautiful" by David McCandless
Right in UK is equivalent to Republican in US.
The philosophy is traditional with a focus on the individual, supporting free trade, freedom and employers. Community is based on morals.
Family life: tough love from a strict parent builds character and develops child into self reliant adult.
Beliefs:
Religion: theistic, organized, conventional
Rights: others must not interfere
Criminals: choose to be criminals
Homeless: no work ethic, no values, no sense of shame
Society: survival of the fittest
Government:
Tend to be hawks and believe in upholding order, helping those who help themselves, strong role models, champions of opportunity
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Suziequeue, what does your diagram say about the left?
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Let me take a moment to explain to Yankygirl what we meen by right wing. starting on the Left: Trotsky, Lennin, any trade union leader , Ken Livingston, then in the middle ground you have the liberal party and other great roaring poufters, then moving to the right we have Hitler, Attila the Hun, the KKK, then Maggie Thatcher, Poll Pot, Then way over there if you have a good pair of Binoculars or the hubble telescope you might get a fleeting glimpse of me .
That is a great spectrum! :D :D :D
Ian
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Here's the diagram, I got curious Suzie :)
Left v Right (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-right-us/)
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for someone with an iq of 167, your spelling is awful! ;D
;D ;D ;D and I'm dyslexic and a teacher ;D ;D ;D
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Here's the diagram, I got curious Suzie :)
Left v Right (http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-right-us/)
Yes - that's the one Jaykay.
I think it's very good - gets it all on one page at least!!
We have this book in the loo :D :D
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for someone with an iq of 167, your spelling is awful! ;D
Let's not go there again ::) :&>
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now, back to topic -
there has been a study that teenage brains are in a state of constant reforming. At this time especially they need guidance, boundaries and loving care. So what they are exposed to in that time will make them who they are going to be , so much more formative than childhood. Violent video games and movies, crime in their surroundings and negligent parents - and a society that does not give them purpose or offer any prospects. How can any of these ghetto kids achieve a standard of education when they can legally rob others (as stakeholders or executives or bankers)? If you are not born rich it is not likely that you ever will be - money makes more money. There was a government which took everything away from the larger community and put it into some people's pockets long ago - that trend was never reverted , not by Blair or anyone else considered "left" - what was left about New Labour??? So it is alright to skim the profits of companies which do well and never give anything back, build a mansion instead and another, and another. And then - let it go bust and small people are without jobs. What really are kids learning these days? Why are they so detached from the rest? We've lost them to the culture they have already created to feel at home somewhere, damage done.
And to National Service - yes - if there is the option of Social Service , too. This will help the voluntary and care sector in trouble. And kids get in touch with the needy, elderly and disabled, which will (hopefully) raise compassion for others worse off than themselves.
and - Yankiegirl - just out of curiosity, what does appeal to you in the Tea Party? :&>
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How can any of these ghetto kids achieve a standard of education when they can legally rob others (as stakeholders or executives or bankers
Not sure I follow the logic in this sentence though agree with a lot of what you say.
I wish we could ensure that kids did get a decent education and then they might be able to see other possibilities and have the wherewithal to pursue them. To do so though, for kids who haven't been socialised properly as pre-schoolers, needs small classs and the right to discipline them properly when necessary, ie it's not ok for them to mess up classes and refuse to work.
All this seems expensive and we won't pay for it - but class sizes of 10-12 and back-up support, are a helluva lot cheaper than paying for the whole mess later - and more constructive!
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sorry, didn't do a grammar check ::)
I meant to say - how can these kids achieve a standard of education so they can legally rob - as shareholders, bankers, company executives - as in my opinion that's what these high-flyers do. Society is split into a small part that can legally get away with theft and everyone else who tries to make a decent living or turns to crime if the cirumstances are unfortunate.
Education and childhood care are very important but care for teens is underrated as they are considered to be adults while their brains are still reforming. Responsibility and compassion have to be learnt afresh during these years. :&>
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The Tea Party
1. limited constitutional republic (take a look at our constitution it is relatively short. It is a document that restricts* the govt's power not citizen's)
2. personal responsibility.
*not anarchy as has been asserted by some!
No system is perfect but some are better than others (they don't trample the freedom and liberty of citizens).
No group is completely homogeneous but their are a few principles that bind the group together.
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I had to learn your constiitution by heart at school - sounds good in theory. If all people were treated the same.
Personal responsibility is good, too.
What does freedom / liberty of citizens mean for you personally and as a group/party? The right to wear weapons?
This is exactly what the rampaging mob claims here - to be free to do what they want without the state/police messing with their affairs.
Also Prime Minister Cameron promotes a "Big Society", where we look more after our own affairs (and after our neighbours, elderly,...)- meaning that the government wants to withdraw support and responsibility by the state for the people. Pay tax and get what exactly in return from society? No care for the elderly or disabled, closed libraries and public leasure centres, less police, less teachers, closed or privatised schools and no remaining health service, no post offices. Oh yeah, I forgot - we got a few wars nobody voted for, but that was the previous "left" government, same difference.
What are the responsibilities of the state as financed by the tax payer - in your vision, yankiegirl? :&>
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had to learn your constiitution by heart at school - sounds good in theory.
Not only good in theory but in practice (not perfect). Things changed in a major way for individuals starting with the FDR administration. Prior to that private not public institutions were met needs. For free? NO. But the things we think of as free today are actually being paid for through taxes confiscated from pay checks. There is no such thing as FREE!!!! Gov't adds an additional layer of cost to everything. They are the middleman that pads the cost.
Personal responsibility is good, too.
Not just good. Under a constitutional republic, essential! It is unworkable (as we are seeing here in the US) without it! That is the danger of a welfare state it eventually strips a mans pride and bye bye personal responsibility. When a large % of the population is not a stakeholder then why not riot and plunder.
What does freedom / liberty of citizens mean for you personally and as a group/party? The right to wear weapons?
This is exactly what the rampaging mob claims here - to be free to do what they want without the state/police messing with their affairs.
No the mob is advocating chaos and anarchy. No Tea Party member advocates that.
Freedom and Liberty:
Ohhh! Tougher to put in words than one might think. Great question! Now my answer can't be all inclusive so please allow for some back and forth or clarification. (and if you have read any of my other posts you know I ain't that smart but I do like to read! That's the beauty of freedom and liberty: It ain't just for the brainiacs
Freedom from coercion, freedom from the arbitrary power of other men, release from the ties which leave the individual no choice but obedience to the orders of a superior to whom he is attached. (not my words but this sums it up)
This freedom offers no guarentees from want or from feeling the consequenses of your actions. It does offer the opportunity to live in a manner you see fit.
This is not lawlessness. However, if I want to eat salty, greasy fried pork rinds there shouldn't be an agency trying to outlaw the choice in the name of public good (socialized medicine).
If I want to homeschool my kids...if I want to drink unpasturized milk...if I want to butcher my own hogs...if I don't want smoke detectors in my home...if I don't want to buckle my seat belt...THAT SHOULD BE MY CHOICE!!
Pay tax and get what exactly in return from society? No care for the elderly or disabled, closed libraries and public leasure centres, less police, less teachers, closed or privatised schools and no remaining health service, no post offices
You don't pay the enormous $$ to the gov't for things. Some things are reponsibilities ofthe federal govt: Military. State govt: education(maybe) local gov't: police. But some things are volunteer organizations: fire companies. Some things you pay for out of pocket or your place of employment offers it in a pay package: medical care.
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Why oh why do we look to America as any sort of example? Do we want to be like the Tea Party lot with the mad Sarah Palin and crew?
We should look to our Scandanavian neighbours and, I hope, when Scotland is independent, that's what we will do.
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I can't ever imagine Scotland electing any form of Right wing government. The Tories have how many seats in Scotland? Scottish people have always cared about their neighbours, appreciated Trades unions for what they should do, preventing exploitation of working people and wanted to look after their sick and elderly.
The only trouble is that all of us have paid for a system that was supposed to care for us when we became old or sick, now our government in Westminster don't want to honour their side of the bargain. Will we get our contributions back? I don't think so!
Edit: America is no kind of example to anyone. I meet a lot of Americans travelling in Scotland, almost without exception they say "don't model Britain on the USA"!
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Edit: America is no kind of example to anyone. I meet a lot of Americans travelling in Scotland, almost without exception they say"don't model Britain on the USA"!
Would we ever be that desperate??????
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Why oh why do we look to America as any sort of example? Do we want to be like the Tea Party lot with the mad Sarah Palin and crew?
We should look to our Scandanavian neighbours and, I hope, when Scotland is independent, that's what we will do.
I don't - I'm curious as I don't understand the attraction - still don't btw , all sounds too wishy washy and generalising to me.
I agree with Scandinavia, Rosemary, even their system doesn't stop right-wing nutters with guns, though, sadly. :&>
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interesting article on radio 4 earlier. in philadelphia (u.s.a.) theres a curfew from 9pm over the weekend to try to control 'flash mobs' kids going looting,pre-arranged via social networking, the parents of any kids found on the streets after then, will be fined.
also very disappointed to hear of the first eviction proceedings of a family whos son has been convicted of looting. that will set a precendent.
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The only trouble is that all of us have paid for a system that was supposed to care for us when we became old or sick, now our government in Westminster don't want to honour their side of the bargain. Will we get our contributions back? I don't think so!
Fellow dirty handers your system is out of $. Yes you paid in but it's gone!
Both our contries have run out of other people's money to spend. The promises made were unkeepable.
Why should some one else be responsible for me anyway?
even their system doesn't stop right-wing nutters with guns, though, sadly
Why do you fear guns? Other than the obvious reasons. In my part of Pennsylvania most homes have many.
Do we want to be like the Tea Party lot with the mad Sarah Palin and crew?
Be honest...no seriously...it's like having a boogie on the end of your nose and no one will tell you. Do I sound mad?
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Sorry, Yankiegirl, I tried but I still don't get your reasoning or arguments. And vice versa I guess. Blame it on how we were raised. Never mind, I'm sure you're a nice person ;) :&>
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Why do you fear guns? Other than the obvious reasons. In my part of Pennsylvania most homes have many.
Shoot or be shot.
No guns, different decision.
Simples.
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Why should some one else be responsible for me anyway?
Because it's the same as you buying health insurance, you expect it to pay out when you're sick.
We pay into a government scheme of National insurance, why should we not expect the same?
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A few of the posts are resentful that you paid into the govt and aren't going to get it back. I understand. But...the...money...is...gone.
I'm not sure there was ever another ending to this story.
I know, I know, you had to pay. We do over here too. But 20 years ago (over here)I remember hearing rumblings that the $ was being taken from Peter to pay Paul. Did you folks get no heads up?
I guess I don't understand why some of the posts aren't expressing a desire to change your system. I just hear sounds of pissed folks who t
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Damn my puffy fingers for pushing the button too soon.
Damn my lame brain and dial up internet service. It took so long for the reply screen to come up that I forgot what I was saying!
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You don't have to spell it out, I...am...not...stupid!
I'm as pissed off as you'd probably be if your Medicare or whatever it's called said " we spent your insurance premiums, tough luck".
We don't necessarily want to change the system, just fix it. Most British folk don't want private health insurance, that's for sure. It doesn't work there, it won't work here.
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Off to milk goats!
They understand me! And you, if you were the one pulling their teets!!!! I love farm animals!!!!!!