The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: arborexplora on July 26, 2011, 08:24:21 am
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Hello all!
I have looked at the archives and know this topic has come up before, but I am unsure of the circumstances, so here goes:
My parents currently have a static caravan on a site in Teesdale that they generally use at weekends, the fees are paid up for this year (until Nov), however as they will now be living in the countryside (farmhouse with 11.5 acres and outbuildings) there are unlikely to need the retreat at weekends and with site fees around £1200 a year are looking to move the caravan off the site. They are considering putting the static on the land next to the existing outbuildings, the caravan will not be used as a residential dwelling apart from occasions when relatives stay. Can they do this without planning permission or have I opened a can of worms? Again they do not intent to live in the caravan it is more an ancillary building. :-\
Many thanks, Richard
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As far as I know, this is ok. It will be used for agricultural workers taking breaks and for occasional use like lambing - won't it?! We have a caravan on our land which is used for just that. It was spotted by the local vigilantes within moments of it arriving but despite the parish council hopping up and down spouting about 'unlawful development' nothing was ever done and it's still there.
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Good solution :D I suppose if a willow hedge were planted around it, so it was less visible, it might provoke less reaction too.
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If its within the boundary of the house and not connected to the mains you will not need any planning permission. Its fine for holidays, but cannot be used as a dwelling.
Ta
Barry
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Thanks everyone for the replies. Barry, it depends on how one would see the boundary of the house, the house and gardens abut against the outbuildings (i.e no fence) before the fields which are fenced, so I would argue that as long as it isn't put within a field then theoretically it would be in the grounds of the house. I'm sure power could temporarily be provided via an extension from the main outbuilding workshop. I will keep you all posted, and we shall see how long it takes before someone takes issue.
Regards, Richard
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Hi
Just to provide an alternative view, we are living in ours as temporary accomodation as house is uninhabitable, whilst we renovate. We were told by planners (even for temproary residence) that we would have to apply for planning unless we were doing all the work ourselves, i.e., could not be used as temp site office or if we were living on site but just project managing. We have pointed out that a) OH is doing majority of work (as not qualified electrician/plumber etc) and that b) we have animals on site that need looking after ( pigs/chickens/sheep etc) and c) as soon as house is habitable the van will be in the way ( already is, but it was best place to put it at the time). The have let it go but wanted to charge us.
Fortunately locals are OK because we save the site from being 'developed'.
I would say that it may depend on your local planners.
Jo
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We are waiting for planning permission to be granted for a new toilet block on our campsite and so have had to put two portacabins up this year for customers to use - the planner came last week and told me I needed planning permission for the temp cabins - while I waited for the planning to come through for the toilets. - I nearly shat myself laughing.
Baz
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We had this with out static that's in a corner of the garden. Local council told us we needed planning permission. I produced photographs showing there'd been a caravan there for around thirty years (not necessarily the same one) and they backed down, but advised if we wanted to put a second one there we'd need to apply.
This is plumbed in to mains water/sewer/electric incidentally.
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I've been looking into this sort of thing recently too.
As I see it a lot has to do with local planner interpretations and leniency or otherwise.
Theoretically if it's on wheel there is no argument and if the property is downgraded to being a house rather than farm or smallholding then the new rules make life easy - but then re-registering as a farm can be iffy.
Once plumbing and power go in then it gets harder too on farm land.
One of the ways you can help yourself is to be creative with the purpose of the space - storage is better than workshop is way better than office is better then temporary or part time residence..although holiday cabin may get you permission again as a potential local income earner... Trade -offs with demolishing a ruin might or might not help if you have collapsed shelters on the land.
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Councils are stroppy about statics as they have had many fingers and toes burned with travellers. So they cant afford to set a precedent of allowing something harmless in case it is then used to try to get away with unlawful traveller sites causing chaos.
If its not connected to mains, is mobile and isnt lived in, then they may be OK but they can expect to have to demonstrate this to the council at some point. A touring caravan presents a lot fewer headaches but can see if they already have the static thats what they want to use.
We have one we lived in while the first phase of the house was made habitable. We still have another phase to do, so altho we are only permitted to keep it until we finish, thats been a while already. To be honest its a pain in the butt and if the freezer and wash machine werent in there (no room in phase 1) I would get it gone tomorrow as it costs a lot to background heat a static enough up here (NE Scotland) to stop pipes freezing and they still normally freeze anyway! So worth considering the costs of that before deciding to retain it!
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They really do need to retain it. It's probably 10 years old so the site owner would only offer peanuts (if he wanted to keep it at all) it is worth more to my dad as an extra store room. Put it this way if they didn't already own it they won't be buying one to put on the property. It's a decent two bedroom van, only thing is dad took out the fitted seating at the front to put in a L-shaped couch. I guess they will just take a chance and if they have to remove it then so be it.
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Could it be 'redressed' into a shepherds hut? surely that would be ok ;)
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They really do need to retain it. It's probably 10 years old so the site owner would only offer peanuts (if he wanted to keep it at all) it is worth more to my dad as an extra store room. Put it this way if they didn't already own it they won't be buying one to put on the property. It's a decent two bedroom van, only thing is dad took out the fitted seating at the front to put in a L-shaped couch. I guess they will just take a chance and if they have to remove it then so be it.
We also removed the fitted seating; well we didnt really, our Doberman sort of ate it, but same difference I expect!
If they are happy that at worst (if someone kicks up and the planners are stroppy) it might have to be for storage and any enhanced usage would be a bonus then there isnt really any downside and they should go ahead and plonk it. Might want to think about screening tho to minismise any chance of moans, tho that depends on the siting. It might be fine and noone might say anything.
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Wheels don't always help. There's been crackdown is some areas on field shelters which quite often are actually permanent buildings to all intents. Putting down hard standing is classed as development as is marking out development plots on unconsented land.
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How did this happen that we let councils tell us what we are permitted to do on our own land? Sorry - but we're going through a planning nightmare at the moment trying to get a polytunnel on our smallholding , thanks to the nightmare neighbours and the jobsworth council. If this localism bill goes through it will only get worse. All the Nimby retirees and the 'no change here now I've got my nice house' parish council will stop anyone doing anything, ever. Rant over. Sorry for thread hijack! :gloomy:
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Im surprised you are having polytunnel issues Katie given recent court rulings that effectively allow farmers to cover their farm in them. Is it cos it's in your garden you are having issues with neighbours or is it in an agric field? Are you in an AONB, national park, conservation area or anything?
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It's in an agricultural field on a registered smallholding with planning permission for a mobile home because of an agricultural business.You wouldn't think it would be difficult, would you?
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It's in an agricultural field on a registered smallholding with planning permission for a mobile home because of an agricultural business.You wouldn't think it would be difficult, would you?
Under what legislation are they claiming you need planning?
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It's all to do with the SA ruling - the strawberry firm who put up loads of polytunnels in Herefordshire a few years back. This led to many Councils having a rethink on tunnels and for many you now need planning permission. We are in a bad position as we have slightly under the 5 hectares needed to avoid ordinary planning ...and we have horrible neighbours who raise a hue and cry whenever we try and do anything.
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It's all to do with the SA ruling - the strawberry firm who put up loads of polytunnels in Herefordshire a few years back. This led to many Councils having a rethink on tunnels and for many you now need planning permission. We are in a bad position as we have slightly under the 5 hectares needed to avoid ordinary planning ...and we have horrible neighbours who raise a hue and cry whenever we try and do anything.
The 5 hectares. But that made me go digging more on rejected polytunnel permissions... quite interesting when superficial inspection of the rules on permitted dev makes ya think it's straightforward...
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Ha! We've employed a planning agent because we knew we would have problems. He told me that when I warned him, he thought'A polytunnel? How difficult can it be?' Now he's beginning to get the picture.....
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I have a fruit cage made from spare panels after making my dog runs. I was given some sheet plastic, and was intending attaching it to the dog runs to give me some sort of greenhouse effect. But I won't do it if it means I've to get those twats from the Council to give me permission to me do it by paying them some of my pension. ::)
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Well I'm in favour of planning: just can't stand the planners.
I visited a neighbouring farmer yesterday. Hadn't been there for a while and it suddenly struck me that he was now operating a business park which had a small farm attached. Almost every outbuilding was an office and there were over forty cars parked there.
I didn't think that was what the green belt intended.
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Well I'm in favour of planning: just can't stand the planners.
Love this quote! Planning permission is generally required for the siting of a static caravan.
The legal definition of a “Caravan” is “any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another whether by being towed or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer”. A static caravan which cannot be towed would not normally fall into this exemption and would normally need planning permission.
You could try and demonstrate "Incidental use within the curtilage" to get around this.
What this means is that if a mobile home is sited within the curtilage of a dwelling-house for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling-house, it is unlikely to require planning approval. You should take site-specific advice on what defines your curtilage. The mobile home must also be used for a purpose “incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling-house”, that is in addition to the use of the house, but not as somebody's separate dwelling. You may use a static caravan as a granny annex for example, but it must not become somebody's "only or main residence". There must remain a relationship between the caravan and the house, so, for example, meals could be eaten in the house. The static caravan should be used simply in the manner of an extra room/bedroom.
I have clients living in temporary accommodation (caravans) until planning can be persuaded to grant them a permanent home (dependent on business viability). I have also represented members of the travelling community. Planning legislation is always open to local interpretation and enforcement action is entirely discretionary.
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But surely static caravans can be towed or moved on a trailer? Ours was towed into position and you often see them moving slowly along on a huge truck.
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you have just said STATIC it canot be both as i have said before on other subjects it is the wording
asktheplanner will certainly be busy on this forum :farmer:
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I'm confused now. We have a mobile home - I thought that was also called a 'static' as you don't tour around in it but it can be moved. If this is not a 'ststic' what is? ???
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Hi asktheplanner :wave: you could end up with your own portion of the site ;D. Glad you joined us and not just guesting. It makes it feel like a real community -no matter how far or near geographically or philosophically apart we might be.
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The word 'static' when referring to a caravan just gives you an indication of its size rather than anything else.
Planning law is essentially that - law - if you can talk the talk and you walk the walk its somewhat easier to get by. If you want to build something or anyone you know wants to build something and your a planner as well then your onto the golden pathway to build anything you want, where you want it and without the added hassle of any legitimate objectors.
No planning authority wants to lose thousands in court, they normally just refuse and hope that you dont have the capital and knowledge to look up pre-set presidents under the law that they are supposed to be operating under and go-on to win the case. Most the time they will back down if you know the guff, I would think that especially the case as their funds dwindle over the near future.
- The key I would use is dont build anything you cant afford to take down - and build it without planning.
Unless I'm sure I'll get planning for anything I won't bother applying for anything in the future.
I think that asktheplanner should stay a while and answer a few questions as (thanks) thats a pretty comprehensive answer.
If the OP wants more info I'd suggest http://www.fieldtofarm.com/forum/ (http://www.fieldtofarm.com/forum/) where they have extensive info on the subject (although its a pretty boring forum for chatting unlike this awesome forum :)
Baz
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Normally a static still does have wheels so it can be towed to get it from the closest access point at the site to its final position, and can be jiggled around to get it in place. But the difference is that a static generally cant be just towed safely behind a vehicle, it is designed to be primarily carried in on the back of a low loader. Some require police notification as they exceed normal load width limits for road lanes. Many are designed to be connected up to on site electricity and drainage services
A tourer on the other hand is designed to happily be towed around the country and could do so ad infinitum. Its usually a good bit smaller, particularly on the width dimensions, and can legally be towed by a large car. Many will be able to connect to on site electricity but most would have something for drainage like a cassette or chemical loo.
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We have done a lot of research on this and our thinking was that, as long as a caravan, static ,site hut etc can be moved and is not connected permanently to the ground, then that is ok. Willing to be corrected on this, however!
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It does make you boss-eyed, doesnt it?
We have, quite a few years ago, built a log cabin/garden house in our garden. It is 4.5m x5m...... no problem. Its a garden house, dont need planning, we have also built a poltunnel in the garden 3m x 8m.....no problem, dont need planning!.......
But i needed 'planning permission' for putting down some wood chips into a flat rectangle on my field, and pay out good money for 'change of use' to *ride my horse in my own fields* - despite the absolute fact that these fields had been ridden in for the last thrity years. Yet, my neighbour could legally have ridden those same fields without planning or change of use; under the 'right to roam' legislation.... And i could do the same in hers, although she is still not allowed to ride in her own fields! "fffe£%^%^&&(*&$^&&^%£^%^£^^****ell" (sorry- this is an old rant of mine..a few folk will have read it before )
LOL, I suggested to the council that i gave my neighbour half of my feilds and she gave me half of mine, then i would be riding on 'her' property and vise versa...they didnt have an answer for that!!!
Emma T
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I have the leftovers of a huge menage in one of my lower fields that cost the previous owner tens of thousands to install, he didnt think he needed planning either - but he was wrong.
The planners want me to fill it all back in which will probably cost as much to do - its been here years now and if they had let it lie, it would be meadow grass by now and excellent flat camping pitches, an area than could have been used by disabled punters easily and safely as I suggested - but, no. Every few months the planners come and do the rounds and see how I am getting on in filling it back in - its a slow job with only a mini digger to hand ;)
I cant think of many things more in-keeping with the countryside than a safe area for people riding horses - its about time they gave permission for landowners to have a reasonable size menage under prior notification rules.
Here in wales the pony and cob 'trades' are a big part to many communities, many 'farming' families struggle with the fact that the keeping and breeding of stock is not seen as agri when it clearly is.
I suggested to the planners that I wanted to tier some of my campfield so its not so hilly on the prime pitches - they said I would need permission to flatten areas in this manner as it constitutes major ground work? wtf - its just digging earth around - next I think you'll need permission to drive across your own field as tire tracks form.
(that said - in order to get certain grants we are not allowed to make gateways 'muddy' cos it spoils the look of the farm - Ive tried hovvering over the entrances and shooting every animal that stands there but they still seem to get poached?!)
Bloody planning!! ;)
Baz
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A shovel would be even slower, Baz. Isn't it all mad?!
Why on earth do you need planning to dig a small pond in an area of land that always gets wet in winter?
Sigh.
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bazzais it is all in the wording normally you would need planning permission to operate a tip with all the conditions attached i know of three sites that are opperating tips with different wording one of them is a former sand quarry that the previous owners tried to get as a tip and failed the new owner was tipping within weeks of taking ownership of it i have created two ponds and no objections so far(they are wildlife havens now) my shed did stir the s**t a bit but it is still there and the sign is also still there :farmer:
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Katie the attached might be useful pond resource if not eligible for the exemption for small agricultural ponds
http://www.pondconservation.org.uk/Resources/Pond%20Conservation/Documents/PDF/PLANNINGPERMISSION.pdf (http://www.pondconservation.org.uk/Resources/Pond%20Conservation/Documents/PDF/PLANNINGPERMISSION.pdf)
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Equestrian activities like show jumping and lunging aren't an agricultural use, so you need a change of use.
On the other hand grazing is an agricultural use and so would be horse ploughing or the like. And you could probably make an interesting argument that fox-hunting, being the control of vermin, is also agricultural. Developing the theme a manege built for the training of horses to the plough must be an agricultural use. Forestry falls under the same definition, so presumably training a horse for logging would also be a permitted purpose.
There could be some mileage in this....
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Ref the agricultural/ equestrian use of fields-
my local planning department actually, really truly, honestly, did try to tell me that if i wanted to rotate between grazing the horses/and or sheep and then riding in my fields i would have to apply for ''change of use'' for each occasion!!! Pah!!
I suggested that although this may seem like a good money making scheme for the council i would be asking for an advisory visit for each occasion and that they would have to emply someone full time to cover this and all the paperwork... therefore costing the department more money thaan they would make! Never heard a peep since!!
total utter nonsense!!
Emma T
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I like where this thread is going - two great answers :) !!!!
Baz
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Ref the agricultural/ equestrian use of fields-
my local planning department actually, really truly, honestly, did try to tell me that if i wanted to rotate between grazing the horses/and or sheep and then riding in my fields i would have to apply for ''change of use'' for each occasion!!! Pah!!
I suggested that although this may seem like a good money making scheme for the council i would be asking for an advisory visit for each occasion and that they would have to emply someone full time to cover this and all the paperwork... therefore costing the department more money thaan they would make! Never heard a peep since!!
total utter nonsense!!
Emma T
I reckon if you have a CPH number and have more agricultural animals than horses, they would be on a stickyish wicket. Esp if the horses are kept primarily as a 'natural sheep worm control mechanism'....