The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: tommytink on December 10, 2019, 02:55:43 pm
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I’m having a difficult time trying to move my Badgers. I need to put them in a new field which for the first time isn’t linked to the one they’re currently in. I have a problem wherein I cannot get them in a pen.
Not only that but they’ve contracted what appears to be sheep scab from the ram that came in. They were treated with Zermex 2% two weeks ago but not shown any sign of improvement and looking patchy. The farmer that sold them to me came and got them in with his dog for this. Came again yesterday and gave them a squirt of Crovect should it be lice instead but he said we’d need to dip them to be clear of the problem. We didn’t dip them earlier in the year; not something I ever wanted to do and hadn’t anticipated a problem. He says it would be okay even though they’re hopefully in lamb. We’ve found a mobile dipper but this will be after Christmas sometime.
I don’t know whether to go ahead with this or speak to the vet. I don’t really want to leave them any longer as I’ve let them down already. To top it off now the fields are trashed with all the rain we keep getting. I know it’s not ideal to move them if they’re infected but it’s a single field that would be unused again for a period once they’re off it (long enough for any contagions to die).
Whatever happens I need to get them penned and with just two people it’s not happening. Are there any local services or places I could try where someone with a dog could come and get them in? I’ve looked online but can’t seem to find anything with what I’m searching. Maybe I’m the only one stupid enough to have this problem. Our neighbours helped before but it took forever and I don’t want to cause the sheep any more stress. I feel so stupid about the whole business. I don’t think this smallholding thing is working out for me.
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Have you had the scab confirmed by the vet? If so I’d see what the vet says r.e dipping while in lamb. They should be able to advise and work out a treatment plan.
Can you get them eating some sheep nuts, you should be able to tame them up within a week or 2 of regular feeding (not much, just a handful each day) and then they should follow a bucket?
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Don't be disheartened - smallholding is full of highs and lows. We've been doing this for 20 years and thta's one thing that hasn't changed.
You need to get good veterinary advice and a treatment plan, then follow it. The let down is from the supplier of the ram, IMHO.
Might be helpful to say where you are?
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I’m in Carmarthenshire. Halfway between Carmarthen and Haverfordwest.
We’ve tried to get them to follow a bucket before. Maybe not as intensely as we should’ve but we got them in just coming into spring when there was plenty to eat. Their field is a mess now with so much rain.
Haven’t had the scab confirmed. Thought would either be that or lice which is why we did Crovect yesterday. Again relying on the guy who sold them to us for help and advice. Vet is going to want to take a sample but can’t get them even for that. The ram was worst affected. Got a close up view of him yesterday and could see flakes in his wool on the edge of his bald patches (which were his sides and under his tummy). Almost looked like psoriasis. I am so angry with myself as obvs should have been quarantined but we just let him go straight in as didn’t have 4 or 6 weeks, whichever it is, to wait.
I don’t know what to do but hubby has tasked me with sorting it out and I’m just coming up blank. If we can never get them in we shouldn’t have them as it means we can’t look after them properly. Feel like an idiot.
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If you were able to get them in, can you keep them in for a period of time? It might be worth seeing if a farmer with a dog can come help you get them in, then you can get the vet to take a skin scrape, then treat accordingly. At the same time get them used to feed and only let them out once they are tamer. I bought a group of ewes a few years ago from a hill farm, they had never seen straw before and were wild as coots :roflanim: I shut them in for nearly a month, got them eating cake, used to people and only let them out once I was happy they would follow me and a bucket. There’s 1 that’s still wild but the rest are fairly easy to move now.
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Its always a good idea to bucket train sheep ready for this sort of situation.
Make up a large pen, if your short of hurdles maybe against an existing fenceline. Start feeding the sheep every day and move the feeder closer and closer to the pen and gradually move the feeder inside it and feed in the pen. Then step over the fence and close up the gap while their eating.
It might take a while to get them used to it though. My experience (Contrary to one man and his dog), is that you can't 'force' a sheep into a hurdle pen, you persuade them.
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:hug:
We all have stories like that. Mine, very similar to yours, but the farm was over 1,000 acres of predominantly moorland and we had more than 500 sheep! :o. My biz partner was an experienced farmer, but gathering that many semi-feral hefted Swaledales on that amount of that terrain was new to her too... well, we managed, but it certainly taxed us!
It was our hoggs that got infested, we never did find out why. Except that the first winter can be very stressful even for such hardy sheep as those, and the bugs take advantage if the sheep are stressed. Subsequent winters we kept the hoggs on easier ground, and gave them a little cake right through their first winter. We never had the problem again.
If it’s scab you have every right to be absolutely livid with the owner of the ram - and the farm he was on last. :rant:
Crovect is not effective against scab. Nor is it effective against sucking lice, nor keds. It will control - but not eradicate - chewing lice (aka biting lice), and ticks, but only if correctly applied for the target parasite, which in my experience, older farmers often don’t do. They use the applicator they like and spray it on the way they like, and it won’t always give adequate protection for the problem you have at that moment. Sigh.
I’m unable to fathom how you’ve managed to Crovect them yesterday but can’t get them penned? How did you Crovect them?
Any treatment for any of these contagious beasties is only as good as your ability to gather and treat every single sheep, to not allow a treated sheep to come into contact with an untreated one nor with any fence, wall or tree or hedge an untreated one could have rubbed against in the last week or two, or indeed after you treat your sheep...
So if you share a boundary with another sheep or cattle keeper, you need to ‘fess up and all agree to treat all your animals on the same day, or one of you move your animals to a non-contiguous field.
When we had our traumas with the Swaley hoggs, we used Dectomax first but it didn’t work and in the end Crovect did. So if you can’t get a robust diagnosis, you need two clean fields you can use. One to move them to after the first treatment and the second in case the first treatment doesn’t work!
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No farmer will want to bring his or her working collie to round up infested sheep, as the bugs could infest the collie and then the home flock.
Sheep like yours won’t be easy to bucket train when there’s good grass, but they will be hungry now, and feeling fairly ropey with that infestation, so you should find they are much much keener on cake right now. Possibly even to the point of being less cautious around you ;)
For another year, give the tup (with the owner’s agreement and the vet’s advice) a complete de-infest. I suspect you can’t give Crovect and Dectomax at the same time, but you might find Trodax or something has better coverage for the beasties you are likely to have on your farm - or on an arriving tup. I give arriving tups a worm and fluke dose here.
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I think sheep are the cause of many marriage breakdowns!
Definitely speak to the vet. He or she may be able to help with catching even one of the sheep for a scrape, especially if there's a student to help, or they may know of someone with a dog. All is not doomed!
I'm not quite clear on the arrangement of the fields. You say the field the sheep are in is not next door to where they are to go. Is there some connection through other fields? If so, open the gate into the next field and leave it open overnight. By the morning the sheep should have taken themselves through. Then do the same to the next field, and so on until you reach the field they are to be in. Let them move themselves - they will always go to the best grass. Or do you have to move them to another field away from your property?
A way I devised to pen sheep on my own when my husband was deathly ill one year, was to use a length of electric sheep mesh, not electrified. I laid it out in a funnel shape using a fence as one side and mesh for the other, firmly tensioned at each post, and leading into a pen with a gate which could be swung shut. Back then I could still run, just. I drove the sheep into the wide end of the funnel as calmly as I could then ran the last bit when they realised they couldn't keep going and swung the gate shut behind them. A later modification was to make the pen double with a small gap across the middle, then I would wait until they had all gone through before running to shut the gate - they couldn't all run back because of the second small gap. The far end of the pen should have the appearance of a way out ie not be solid, as sheep will not run into a trap. The main thing is to keep calm - sheep are all too aware of your body language so if you are desperate or angry they will react with fear and scarper. If it doesn't work the first time, take down the mesh and leave it til tomorrow. Don't leave the mesh in the field as they will become entangled. Also, if one sheep gets left behind, don't chase it as you'll not catch it, but meantime the rest will scatter. As long as you have most of them in, then the stragglers will beg to be let in after a while.
Following a bucket is not something which comes easily to certain breeds of sheep, so it can take a while to get them interested. In our experience, if the sheep were not used to feed when you get them it can take until after they have lambed before they will eat it, so it's fine for tame sheep, but not for ferals.
Have a good think about your sheep and your whole enterprise. Perhaps you started off with the wrong breed, or with too many sheep. [Ignore this bit - see later post - If you are absolutely desperate then I wonder if the RSPCA would help? We are in Scotland and the SSPCA definitely would, but I'm not sure about the English equivalent. ] Above all, don't panic. It's been said many times that if you've made the wrong decision with sheep, well, you can always eat them, then start again with just a few of a quieter breed until you have learnt how to handle them. There's nothing to be ashamed of in getting it wrong - unless you have grown up to it, then you cannot know it all before you start. We are all here to help if we can.
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I feel so stupid about the whole business. I don’t think this smallholding thing is working out for me.
Don’t give up, tt, you are clearly made of the right stuff and you will get there. :hug:
Being made to feel an idiot and that you shouldn’t be given charge of animals is something that never stops happening, just with a lot of work and quite a bit of luck, it gets less frequent and you find ways through and past it more readily. ;)
I said to my cows just this afternoon, “Well I’ve been doing this for ten years now and you two are making me feel like I know absolutely nothing.” True story. ::)
So you’ve had a horrible set of circumstances, and find yourself in quite a pickle to sort it out. You will learn so much as you work your way through all this! And you will make some changes so that another time it won’t catch you out so badly. That’s farming. Anyone who tells you they never have problems they think might beat them is lying, or doesn’t look at their animals properly.
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I have to go now but I will write some notes later about sheep psychology, and moving the warier type of sheep ;)
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Good info here (https://www.sruc.ac.uk/download/downloads/id/186/tn636_control_of_sheep_scab_and_other_ectoparasites_of_sheep.pdf) about the various ectoparasites and their control. It’s Scottish so scab is notifiable, but the lifecycle and meds stuff applies wherever you are.
Eblex and SCOPS are bound to have some good materials too, do some googling ;)
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For single handed corraling of sheep (if the bucket fails) i do exactly what fleecewife described with sheep netting - i might use more of a trumpet shape than funnel perhaps.
If you don't have sheep netting then anything you have that works as a visual barrier: pallets, cars, roof sheets, whatever you have. The last bit where they start crowding needs to be more resilient in case the more nervous individuals try and run into it so i have a few hurdles for that.
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I have a Welsh Badger Faced ewe (only one now!) and know how difficult they are to round up once they start to feel hunted. And once it gets to the stage where the only serious attention they get is when you want to gather them, then you've actually programmed them to try and evade you. I was given my sheep, Princess, by a friend who found her impossible to catch, unless I came with my dog; and even then she was a nightmare because she knew that the dog meant we were going to catch here. I've had her a while now and she is that tame that she now comes when she sees me and actually jumps up on me, like a dog, for treats. So what's changed? Well I don't hunt her.
I go in the field daily with treats and an attitude that it's a matter of complete indifference whether she comes or not. Think about it - if you were a prey animal like a sheep would you go anywhere near humans when all they did was chase you round a field? How would you feel if a pack of them tried to gather you in a similar way that wolves do? Would you not want to keep as much distance as possible between you and them? Well that's what Princess was like. But now I can gather her and her friends even without my dog, as he is getting old and I haven't trained the pup up yet.
I find the best thing for treats is chopped up carrots because you can throw them a distance and they can be easily seen on the grass. So you need to go daily and just throw the treats to the sheep. Don't even look them in the face when you do it so they don't feel you are eyeing them, ready to pounce.
You need to make a substantial pen of hurdles. And I mean substantial with strong metal hurdles that they can't jump over, or permanent fencing. This will probably cost money and time. But you must have a decent penning system if you're going to keep livestock, or you are setting yourself up for failure. (As you have discovered.) You will use it so many times, once you've got it - like at lambing time, for worming them and in fact for any sort of examination. How else are you going to catch one in an emergency?
So once they've got used to you coming to the field just to feed them, and without an obvious ulterior motive, they will become relaxed and happy to approach you. At some time then get them used to having treats and being fed in the pen. This is easy at this time of year, with little grass. Get them used also to you being near the pen when they are in it; because, believe me, standing a way off and then just running to close the gate once they're all enclosed will not work. They will all dash to the gate first
and most will be out before you've closed it, and then you're back to square one!
It'll probably take a few weeks to build up their trust, but the permethrin (Crovect) you've applied will set back the scabs or lice for the time being but is not a total solution. I had a similar episode some years ago, when a ram I lent out came back with scab and I didn't realise till the sheep were just weeks off lambing so dipping wasn't an option. I injected them with dectamax (similar to Zermax) which was 100% effective.
I would be inclined to keep them in their present field till they have been treated - give them some hay to be going on with. No point in getting another field infected.
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So long as the products have been given at the correct rates and in the correct way then both lice and scab should be under control . Zermex 2% an injection under the skin of the neck of 3ml for your badger ewes and 5ml for the ram will kill and protect for 60days scab ( mites can only survive for 17 days off sheep in post /trees etc ) Crovect a pin stripe from head to tail of 30ml ( the tick rate ) and then allowed to dry for 4hrs will kill lice ( lice can survive off sheep up to 5days ) You must treat all your sheep at the same time if they have or had contact even through a fence or if you have handled them without a change of cloths and you must tell your neighbours ( even birds may move mites / lice on their legs ) To move the sheep as others say make a very large funnel with net that has some way to close the end . If you put out a trough where the sheep like to graze and put in a small amount of feed , once they are eating you can feed twice per day and stand at a distance they are happy with and talk to them then every day move the trough and stand a little closer
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Hiya,
Take heart. I've been exactly the same position before (https://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=48385.0). I'd say do your best to tame these ones up, but don't feel wedded to them. If those sheep or that breed aren't working out for you, don't be afraid to change.
Our last Manx Loaghtan plus the two most wary Zwartbles went to the abbatoir last week and wow, what a difference! I can now pen any of the sheep any time I like, whether I have food with me or not.
Back in the day, with our Manxes, I resorted to all kinds of things - electric fencing, gates on long lengths of rope, the lot! The most successful was to build a maze of hurdles, then feed them inside it. The key was to feed them a little bit inside the 'trap' every day, and every day make the maze one hurdle longer. The reason it was a maze was because although sheep can run faster than I can, they can't change direction quickly, so I could run up and shut the gate on them if I needed to. Of course, once caught like that, they then became wary again, so it wasn't a solution for catching them repeatedly!
You'll find a way, but once again, if these sheep are causing you grief, either tame them up or ship them out. Smallholding is supposed to be rewarding and fun at the end of the day!! Oh, and I'm afraid they will teach their lambs the same behaviour, so if you want to keep the lambs tame as a new starter flock, be very careful never to chase them around.
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We got them penned yesterday as the guy came to collect his tup so brought his dog again. This is when he did the Crovect (straight nozzle used, in a line neck to tail which is same as I read but he also did the rump as you would fly strike prevention). At that time we didn’t know whether to keep them in that field or move them, then a couple broke out so let them all go.
When I first called him about the wool loss I think he was angling that the ewes gave it to his ram, but the ram was itching a lot worse than any of the others. Plus we’re a closed flock (prior to him coming in) and none of our fields border other farmers. More evidence is that the Radnors aren’t showing signs of any issue. They shared a fence line with the Badger ewes but were always a field away when the hire tup came in.
All sheep have been treated at the same time and as per the product instructions.
The field we wanted to move them to is a neighbours and not conjoined with any of ours. The grass where they are at the moment is eaten down and the ground is soft where we’ve had so much rain. We have been giving them a bit of hay to compensate for the grass (I wonder what people do with less land? If you feed them hay won’t they still choose to keep eating the grass away?)
We have built two holding pens. One covers three fields and the other covers two. Trouble is we can’t quad on the land due to the softness so have had to make a hurdle pen using the gate next to a hard surfaced track (I like using gates as part of it as they’re higher than hurdles). So we do similar to what has been said - make a pen with a hurdle to swing shut and then utilise the fence line on one side and hurdles the other to make a funnel. Yesterday some went in the first part and were shut in as bait for the rest. When they followed in we pulled round the end of the funnel. Then pushed them all in the far section. We try and keep them penned tight so they can’t run and jump out etc.
We can get them going along the fence line in a group, but inevitably they start to spread out so they’re in a longer line. Then we get a couple that slow down and stare at us before dashing off and taking the others with them. They don’t keep in a tight flock. So we make the end of the funnel wide but they break off before we get to it. We have two hay racks we could utilise as well but again the field is so soft I think it’ll churn it up rolling them over.
I completely get that sheep are wary of you and the idea that if all you do is things they don’t like they’re not going to want to come near you. The last time we got them in our neighbours helped but it took forever and involved a lot of shouting to try and keep them bunched up which on reflection is not something I want to repeat. I think being calm is the best approach.
It’s evident from all that’s been said that we’ve dropped the ball with the bucket training. We did go in their field and sit with a bucket when they first came to try and get them used to us but we became so busy trying to sort the place out that we gradually stopped doing it. It’s something we will have to make time for, just start again and persevere with.
I have no doubt that we started with the wrong type of sheep! I had good reasons to pick them but probably got them from the wrong place. Saying that the other people I spoke to said theirs weren’t bucket trained either. And also too many. But we moved to a valley and can’t get machinery on some of the land so sheep were the answer to get it all under control. (But we should be able to source extra land one way or another.) The Radnors we got are totally different (although they are still resistant to handling) and will follow a bucket really nicely. Still not what you’d call tame though (apart from the ram who was far too tame and is now getting cocky!) as in they won’t let you stroke them etc (well one will but just when she feels like it).
Vet said dipping shouldn’t affect pregnancy, it would just be the stress of the situation. Unfortunately I didn’t speak to them as they called when I was out. They seemed to say the Zermex should be two injections but as far as I know that’s the 1%, not the 2%. I don’t know what else they would’ve suggested as opposed to dipping, I didn’t take the call to ask. It’s not something I want to do really but it seems an annual dip is quite normal around here.
I had hopes of getting them tamer over the winter. Will put maximum effort into gaining both flocks’ trust and
Thank you for words of encouragement. I think we are in a patch where a lot of things are going wrong for us so it all builds up into a massive issue. We’ll give it another try tomorrow. Although it’s not ideal to move if they have something the land would not be used after they leave it (owner has no livestock) and they need grass.
(Feel like the RSPCA would probably remove them if they saw them! The farmer said they didn’t look too bad, which may be the case to an experienced eye, but when it’s all new to you it just doesn’t look good :( )
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I totally agree - do not call the rspca. A 6 week course in everything from goldfish to hamsters does not give them any useful knowledge in farming. Although some of them think that a look- alike police uniform makes them an expert on anything that breathes.
I think you probably referred to them in jest, but they have taken away animals for less if they think they can make a high profile case out of it. So you are best avoiding them.
If you think I am exaggerating let me assure you I am speaking from experience. :rant:
For confirmation look on facebook at "The rspca did this." It makes chilling reading. :thinking:
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Lots of good advice as ever.
I would just add a couple of things. Chasing your newly tupped sheep about isn't a good idea especially in this clashy weather. Make a pen as others have suggested and feed them in it. Take as long as is needed to get them to recognise what a bucket is and what it means. Put the hay rack in there. Don't attempt to shut them until you are certain they are relaxed with the set up. If they haven't much grass they'll soon learn.
Don't just rely on interlocking hurdles keeping them in if they push, tie them together.
Don't worry about the state of your field for now. It will have plenty of time to recover.
Using a pour on and leaving them in heavy rain isn't going to be that effective.
Mobile dipping is generally a sheep shower.
I'm not sure you have started with the wrong sheep and actually think you are just on a steep learning curve. If you crack it with these then what's the point in starting with some others? But if you can't get to a place where they are enjoyable to keep then yes, I would sell them. Also, if you have one or two that always cause you a problem then consider getting rid of those ones.
When you get them in again I would check their body scores.
With any animal have a clear plan for what you trying to achieve when you do anything. Think of everything that can go wrong and sort it before you start.
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I totally agree - do not call the rspca. A 6 week course in everything from goldfish to hamsters does not give them any useful knowledge in farming. Although some of them think that a look- alike police uniform makes them an expert on anything that breathes.
I think you probably referred to them in jest, but they have taken away animals for less if they think they can make a high profile case out of it. So you are best avoiding them.
If you think I am exaggerating let me assure you I am speaking from experience. :rant:
For confirmation look on facebook at "The rspca did this." It makes chilling reading. :thinking:
As I said, I live in Scotland where the SSPCA is a very different body and will help to find solutions where possible. Tommytink was sounding a bit desperate there, and I would rather see animals taken away and cared for than having someone flounder unable to care for their animals though desperate to do so. I think though the desperation was just a brief scream and now she's able to think more clearly. I have heard tales of the RSPCA not being helpful when they should have been, and their record for farm livestock during F&M was hateful. OK so forget I said that bit :relief: I've modified my previous post!
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Hope the bucket training goes well, its not that difficult really. Just put the feed trough in a popular place in the field where they will see it. Put the feed in and move well away. Once one sheep takes an interest in it they should all follow. Feed them the same time (even twice a day) and they should pick up on it very quickly. Then as soon as they see you and the bucket they should come running!
If they are not eating the hay you put out for them I'd come to the conclusion that either they are getting enough from the small amount of grass you have, or that the hay isn't to their liking. Sheep much prefer soft leafy hay and mine would rather starve them eat coarse stalky hay.
If your concerned about their condition why not post a picture on here and let others advise you? Its hard to judge condition and also the fleece loss without seeing it for yourself!
Don't be too depressed, its a steep learing curve, you obviously care for them otherwise you wouldn't be posting about them. You may not have the easiest breeds of sheep, but you will learn a lot from them. I would definately buy my own ram for next season though!
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The injectibles are a waste of time against scab with the possible exception of Cydectin LA. A shower wont work most of the time. Your crovect wont work vs lice much of the time in full fleece. Buy a load of hurdles, get them in, jab with cydectin LA, also crovect and if the neighbour gets his lot done with OP dip get yours done too
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As a fellow newbie, I'm into my 3rd year now, just want to say how very supportive these posts have been to the original poster, full of fantastic advice. I can't add much as my experience is limited, but we have Shetlands and Cheviots mostly, we currently have 40 ewes and 40 lambs. Hurdles were the best thing we have ever bought. We have a mixture of 4ft, 5ft, and 6ft, whatever we have been able to pick up on offer or second hand, I think we have a out 20 in total. We had to gather our lambs to do some checks other day, I was dreading it as its first time we have moved them without ewes being present, we made a huge pen at other side of gate, using fence lines as well as hurdles, and managed to funnel them into it eventually. Then gradually made pen smaller by removing a few hurdles at a time so that we could do what we needed to do in a smaller space. Moving livestock is literally the only time that we full blown shriek at eachother, it's is incredibly stressful! You will get there, you are asking all the right questions and have a lot of good advice.
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Moving livestock is literally the only time that we full blown shriek at eachother, it's is incredibly stressful!
We leave our relationship at the cattle shed door when doing anything with the cows. It's every man for himself in there :roflanim:
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Moving livestock is literally the only time that we full blown shriek at eachother, it's is incredibly stressful!
We leave our relationship at the cattle shed door when doing anything with the cows. It's every man for himself in there :roflanim:
:roflanim: :roflanim:
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You’ve already had lots of good tips about moving and penning sheep and sheep psychology, but I’ll add a few more observations of my own.
Native / primitive types, and some of the more extensively farmed hill types too, are different to more commercial and downland types. Whereas a Ryeland or a Texel is generally easily trained to a bucket, will probably eat too much good hay if it’s offered, mostly don’t challenge the opinion of many farmers that sheep are stupid, (but also rarely mount much of a challenge to their human’s instructions in terms of being chased into a pen), and can get overtame and pushy through greediness, all of which makes them relatively easy to manage in terms of moving and penning, the less domesticated types have different strengths ;p
Their ancestors learned to survive on the hill or moorland with little or no human assistance, so the prey mentality is strong, and the instincts which protect a prey animal have been honed over many many generations. They generally can be trained to like cake and be interested in a rattling bucket, but it’s never a given than they’ll follow it; as soon as their antennae for danger or threat are tickled, the flight or fight response depresses appetite and food ceases to be of interest.
In my experience, most of these types of sheep have plenty of brains, but their intellect is focussed on being a prey animal that stays alive, not on understanding what the human wants! Lol.
Prey animals have to be good at reading the body language of their predators - and that includes you. So if stand square on to them, they may take that as a threat and switch into prey mode.
General tips for moving this type of sheep include “less is more”. You don’t drive them the way you would drive a biddable type like a Ryeland, that will just switch them into prey mode. You want them to feel they are making their own choices about where they go and at what pace, so your job is to make all the directions that aren’t the one you want them to go in, less appealing. Not to chase them, but to block with non-threatening posture from a reasonable distance so they feel confident that they can turn away from you and move in a different direction. If you get too close or your stance is threatening, they will feel pressured, may turn and face you (same applies to a dog, many farm dogs simply can’t move this type as a flock because they put too much pressure on, and often get too close in). If you are close and they are facing you, they may not turn away at all unless you make your body language softer : turn slightly sideways on, don’t stare into their faces; keep your arms out to make yourself wider if you need to, but make like a fence, not like a snow plough ;)
While you are learning these techniques, sometimes they will run past you. Don’t fret, just learn - that was too close and threatening, they switched into fight rather than flight, next time keep a bit further out, be a bit less dominating.
Sometimes I actually turn my back on them and pretend to be looking at the ground!
Think about it - you are a prey animal, a predator is close to you, possibly close enough to run and grab you. Your best bet is to face it. You won’t feel confident to turn around and see if there’s a safe exit, unless either you are sure the predator can’t reach you, and or you are reassured that the predator is not about to make a jump for you.
Same with driving - if they feel driven, they will suspect that you are up to no good and are trying to get them cornered so you can pick one off. So they will keep breaking away, hiding behind rushes, generally doing the opposite of what you want!
So take this desire of theirs to be where the predator is not wanting them to be and use it to your advantage. I often walk towards them fairly square on from the direction I want them to go, then move out a bit and soften my body language. Suddenly the place I came from looks to them like the very place I do not want them, and they make a break for it! Then I make apparently incompetent efforts to stop them going exactly where I do in fact want them, so they are even more sure that’s where I don’t want them and are even more determined to go there! This technique is particularly useful for getting them out of a pen through a gateway - run at them from the gateway and “let” them “beat” you and get past you - into the gateway! Lol
Other tips include always moving them the same way into, through and out of the pens, so they learn the route. Then when you are in the pens or penning them, there is a route which is familiar and if you make that place seem not scary, they will probably choose that.
In tandem with that, you need to be resolved to try very hard to never give them a bad experience once you do have them penned. They remember for several times, so if they got hurt or very frightened last time, or on a recent occasion, that they went into there, they will have a reticence to go in there again.
Keeping your cool and doing things over and over again if you have to if it isn’t working, but always calmly and without shouting, will pay dividends in the end, even if you and the folks helping you this time might be able to force the issue and do it a bit quicker this time because you are mobhanded. You might not have so much help next time, and they will get harder and harder to manage if they are given reason to believe you will hurt them.
Even with more domesticated types you can see this behaviour. I used to work the loading pens when we sheared on ex-BH’s farm. If I was left to do it myself, I would get more than 80% of the sheep onto the ramp up to the race from which the shearers took their next customer without touching any sheep at all, without shouting, all very calm, using small body movements and intelligently arranged gates and hurdles.
As soon as someone arrived to “help” and got in or leaned over and started behaving more domineeringly, getting hold of and pushing the sheep, shouting at them etc, the ramp and the route to it became scary places, and my gentle hands-off techniques for guiding the next few up there would not work. I’d be trying to make the ramp seem like a safe route out of the pen, but they would remember seeing a flock-mate getting manhandled in there or shouted at, and would refuse to go up.
And because of all that, your friendly local farmer (with or without his or her dog) can sometimes make things worse, unless s/he has the same type of sheep and knows how to manage them. If they are used to managing Texels, they and their dog will be far too “in your face” for a more primitive type, and, even if they manage it this time through sheer determination and perhaps quite a bit of close work by the dog, the sheep will be even harder to manage next time because they know you really are predators and they really are at risk of being caught, hurt or frightened. So choose whose help you seek wisely. ;)
You need to act with calm, quiet confidence; if you are exuding fear, anger, uncertainty or frustration, that will make the sheep even more wary. When you see a good, experienced shearer handling a sheep, the sheep nearly always relax against his/her legs and require very little actual restraint, because they feel the calm confidence of the handler and are reassured by it. The first time you try to dag a sheep, you will probably find it extremely physically demanding, because your uncertainty will communicate to the sheep and make it even more nervous about being up close and personal with you, and restrained by you. As you and the sheep get to know each other better, your confidence in yourself, and theirs that you mean them no harm, will grow, and everything will get easier.
(Much of this stuff applies to suckler cattle too, actually. If the move gets stressful, you can forget the power of a bucket to draw them. If you stand square on to them, they may take that as a threat and switch into prey mode. Etc.)
And finally... things are as almost as hard with this batch of sheep right now as it gets. You are new and inexperienced, they are new to this farm and to you, and neither of you know how to predict what the other will do! It will get easier, it really will.
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And the other thing I was going to say is that for many of us, there is now very little nutrition in the grass, however green and lush it may look, so I and many others on rough pasture or marginal lands will already be feeding hay to our sheep, even if they have plenty of green stuff under their feet.
This type of sheep will only take hay if they need it, and won’t overeat on hay, so it’s pretty safe to say that if they are eating it, they need it, and you can feed them pretty much to appetite. (These words may not apply to greedier sheep like Ryelands ;) )
So a) if you only started giving hay when the grass was gone, it’s possible these sheep are needing a bit more than they’ve been getting, and have lost some body condition, which would make them more susceptible to getting infested whereas usually they can shake off a few lice or keds, and b) they will probably still need hay anyway when you move them, even if there is grass there, so it may be better to keep them where they are and feed them as much hay as they want while you get this infestation dealt with.
I can’t remember if you got experienced ewes or these are gimmers. They need to be getting enough input to help them ovulate, implant and retain their embryos (and that takes more out of a gimmer than an experienced ewe who has finished growing herself), and grass alone probably won’t do it at this time of year. So I’d be giving them hay to appetite, even after moving them.
Oh, and just to mention... I have had sheep get lice from hay which had been stored for a while, especially if the ground is wet, so they lie on the hay they didn’t eat to give them a dry bed. ;).
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That was a great piece on sheep psychology Sally!
Just one point on safety - never block a gateway with your body, use a hurdle or gate. Enough people have been killed by charging sheep attempting to jump that person as they barge through the gateway to escape, throwing the person back to crack their skulls in the fall - it's happened to even the most experienced handlers who think they really know their sheep.
'How we learned to be gentle with our sheep' - I've written this somewhere before but it will be long lost in the dark depths of TAS. When we got our first sheep, 23 years ago, the only example we had of how to handle them was from our neighbour. Ours is a very quiet neighbourhood when the wind's not howling, so sound carries. Any gather on his place consisted of much running madly after sheep going the wrong way - lost cause- and some pretty evil cursing at his wife and children for getting it all wrong. he was fairly young and fit at the time, so could run his Texels down, and even managed to catch our Jacobs, but never our Hebs! On occasion he would attempt to 'train' a new sheepdog pup - a horrible demonstration of cruelty, idiocy and stupidity - any pup was doomed. (he is no longer allowed to keep livestock)
Then we went to collect our first tup, from a retired vet who kept both Hebs and Shetlands. His land was a long and narrow strip, about half a mile long, with much woodland and small pastures. The tup field was at one end, the ewes at the other. He took the opportunity when we were there to put his tup in with his ewes at the same time as picking out our new lad. To get his tup he basically simply opened the gate and let it wander out. We were ready to chase it, imagining it would head off to the woods. Retired vet said "no just leave him, he knows where he's going" and sure enough the tup set off on his half mile walk up to the ewes field. We were ready to rush after him to make sure he was in the right field bu the retired vet said " I'll put him in later once we've sorted your tup - he'll just stand at the gate and wait for me". Our new tup followed the old one as far as the house and was then loaded into the trailer. Everything was so calm, slow and just letting the animals get on with it themselves. We immediately adopted that slow, gentle way, allowing the animals time to do their thing - it's saved us so much angst and aggro over the years, and means our flock is calm and settled.
I definitely second your comment Sally about being careful who you let help you with moving your sheep. An arm waving, jumping, hurtling, shouting maniac used to sheep which flock can undo so much you have done in building up your sheep's confidence, turning them into scattering demons ;D :hugsheep:
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doing anything with your sheep is easy once they know where they are going. for the most part mine do and I Don't have any problems but..... recently I wanted to change things around a bit.... the ram flock consists of youngsters and adults. the adults tend to bully the youngsters and I wanted a small number of sheep to clean up some untidy pasture. ideally all the rams overnight together and the youngster go one way in the Morning the adults another. ...
did I swear to get the two flocks to splitoff and go in the right direction to start with.... and for the first few days... now I just call them and they obediently split off into two groups adults into one field the youngsters into another.. A little hay entices the youngsters to break off and eat without being bothered by the adults and the adults get good grazing after being in overnight. It looks so easy now but if you'd seen them in the begining . sheep are basically willing and easygoing provided there is enough incentive. Hang in there you will get it and so will they
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Not sure I have any great wisdom to add to the helpful thoughts so far but I did want to show that you are not alone. We're two years in to having sheep and still find things challenging. I had exactly the same problem you are struggling with a few months back. Patience, staying calm, leaving things for another day if they are getting flighty, and slow training with the bucket all helped. But on the day it felt like we were completely useless and failing at the basics.
One of my must do jobs next year is to make a point of moving the sheep a lot more often - definitely helped by getting our fencing infrastructure more complete this year. Our ewes do seem to learn the way to go - once they have done a move once or twice they get what is going to happen and will follow calmly.
One really useful point below that might be worth expanding on is about them being able to see an exit and how the ones at the back stay connected to the ones at the front and get pulled along (a bit like they do in a race). We really struggled with a move out a gateway where there was an immediate sharp turn to the right so the ones at the front would be lost from view if there was much of a gap. Eventually we ran them out to the left where they could still see each other, closed the gate, clambered round and then pushed them back the other way.
Also, if the flock has a habit of splitting then just accept that it may happen and collect them in two groups - get the leaders out and penned somewhere and go back for the rest. Keeping trying to get them to go as one group will tire you out and get them more worked up.
Keep going, you will get there :-)
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Zermex 2% an injection under the skin of the neck of 6ml for your badger ewes and 9ml for the ram will kill and protect for 60days scab ( mites can only survive for 17 days off sheep in post /trees etc )
How heavy are the sheep? Zermex 2% is 1ml per 20kg so 6ml would be 120kg and 9ml would be 160kg.
(Zermex 1% is 0.4ml per 20kg, but requires 2 injections 10 days apart and has issues with Footvax)
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Sorry you are correct I spent a lot of time trying to find the usage rate and the only one I found said 1ml per 10kg , but iv'e now found a European site with a data sheet , never used it myself only used Dectomax
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I feel so stupid about the whole business. I don’t think this smallholding thing is working out for me.
Just to echo the others - don't be disheartened: I definitely get this feeling. Just hopefully less often as time passes.
My 10 year old is my sheepdog, and trying to pen up our rams results in him storming off down the hill more often than it does getting the rams into the pen.
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Thank you all for the input and encouragement. Especially the sheep psychology which I am applying from now onwards.
We tried Wednesday, set up the hurdles. Learnt from previous experience to either set another hurdle in an opposing direction or tie very tightly! No luck. Fields were water logging. Tried a bit of bucket work and got a few come over. Think they were hungry.
Thursday tried again. Got the bucket ones penned successfully (led into end of funnel area and pulled loose stock fence around we’d set up. Husband said didn’t think we’d get the rest but I said we should try and it worked. They came in two more batches, and we moved some off in between, but going on the theory that they’d want to be with the others seemed to work. We didn’t chase. Just walked at a distance and calmly blocked the direction we didn’t want them to go. I think having some penned as “bait” really helped. Then we had the fun of getting them in the quad trailer and moving them a few at a time but that’s a different story!
The worst thing was realising the extent of the damage this scab has done (we’re convinced it is scab, could see no crawlies at all). One in particular has lost wool down to her skin and has a small lesion which we sprayed with AB spray. We’ve kept her and another and put them in a small paddock here as I want to keep an eye on her.
It breaks my heart that I have failed these girls. Two weeks ago she was not like this. It was a 2ml dose of Zermex 2%, and I watched the guy do it properly. He wasn’t rushing it and they were all marked off as done. It just hasn’t worked, or if it has only for some. When I checked them I genuinely thought they were itching less. The ram didn’t seem to be rubbing at all (although in the end he was almost always separate from the ewes, at opposite ends of the fields) and I sincerely thought the girls weren’t so bad. Whether the wet weather dampened the symptoms, I don’t know.
It seems general consensus here is that injectables and pour-ons are useless and dipping is the only way to cure it. It’s not going to be until after Christmas and is kind of weather dependent, although the guy asked if we had somewhere to house them if it was raining, which we do. Anyway, I’m worried about them in the meantime. And to top it one of the Radnors has started pulling a bit of wool. Of course as sure as I was that they didn’t share fence lines I discounted the hay feeder that we wheeled from the Badger field to the Radnor field... that our visitor loved to run against. Just so naive... :(
I am reticent now about bucket training and spending time with them. The two we have here and the others. They all came today when I rattled and whistled. Some go for the cake and some don’t. But they all followed from the same direction. Just need to put much more into building our relationship. We’ve been non-stop busy trying to get things straight in this new place, the days don’t last two minutes, and they always seemed so content.
Thank you for all the comments, advice, and understanding. I am sure some people may read this and are kind enough not to say what they think. No one is going to punish me more than myself, believe me. If I’d only took action a week earlier... A steep learning curve indeed.
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So is that a 40kg dose? Is that enough? It does take time to stop itching post-kill as the allergens are still present on/in the skin. Dip is quicker resolution of symptoms due to washing effect and immediate kill
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Farmers are often bad at giving a sufficient amount either when dosing or injecting , they think they are saving money and then when the product does not work they blame the product . Getting the vet to come out or take the worst affected sheep to the vet and getting a simple skin scrape and wool sample so they can be looked at under a microscope should tell you if its lice or scab often they can have both . I have always found injectable's and pour-on 's work well if you apply correctly and at a sufficient amount based on the biggest heaviest sheep ( many years ago I was told to apply crovect at the tick rate not the lice rate to kill lice and it always worked . Since you think your Radnors are infected and you cannot dip until after Christmas , then personally I would get a sample taken and then treat with what ever your vet recommends ( injectables are wormers and pour on keep off and kill insects so would not be wasted ) I would also retreat the Badgers with a larger amount or a different product after discussion with my vet . It gets easier as time goes on and can be a very steep learning curve for some , come lambing time it will all be worth it
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Re handling your badger face sheep - we have been bucket training our welsh mountain sheep ever since we got them. It can be done, but we have found the key is consistency. We feed a minuscule amount in a trough in a pen made from hurdles in their field. We move the pen and the trough regularly so they aren’t associating being penned with a location, but we use the same pen & trough & bucket consistently - it’s “theirs”. We tend to feed them around the same time of day irrespective of which field they are in.
Typically - We call them and noisily shake feed in a bucket - they tend to pretend to not hear, so the person feeding them ignores them back, the feed is then put in the trough as noisily as possible and the person walks off far enough away that the sheep will approach the trough - Sally’s post on sheep psychology was brilliant! So taking great care to appear completely disinterested and not make eye contact with the sheep or do anything startling, that person just busies themself nearby- after a few minutes most of the sheep will wander into the pen, some might eat, some won’t, some might hang just outside - that is the daily goal for us - & it only takes a few minutes. Having said this on the odd day none of them come & a few nuts get wasted.
Once that is regularly established, then mix it up a little, more than one person goes, or the person feeding quickly turns back & shuts the pen whilst they are eating, or shuts the pen & goes in, or shuts the pen and goes in and adds more food or moves the trough. Unless we need to we don’t try to touch the sheep They just happen to be in the pen whilst we are doing something to the trough or feed or pen. We talk to them, only happy sounds ! - having a marital breakdown when handling sheep may be occasionally inevitable, but it must be conducted in happy voices. Sheep are brilliant at detecting threats from our verbal and non verbal behaviours.
It does work, it’s will take a few weeks - longer if you have been chasing them to handle them as you are sending a mixed message - but it takes only a few minutes each day (given that you check your sheep daily anyway - this just becomes the method that you use to do it) & it will mean that when you need to you should be able to pen them. It was invaluable to us just last week when all our flighty welsh mountains went lame overnight - obviously on a day when I was on my own & I didn’t fancy my chances.... I was so proud of them when they all went in to the pen with no hesitation & didnt care when I shut them in - I was amazed I was able to do their feet on my own with very little fuss. We only handle them when we have to, these are animals with finely tuned prey instincts it is enough to simply get as many as can we move willingly into the pen on a daily basis.
We also never ever allow them to be chased, flapped or yelled at, or worked with quads or dogs, we try not to get their prey instincts triggered unnecessarily, if the neighbour needs to round up his escapee sheep with his quad or dogs we move ours away into another field away from the invaders - that’s partly bio security too - you have to chose your handling system it’s either trust or fear. Trust takes a while to establish and a few minutes maintenance each day, fear involves the time & costs associated with owning quads & dogs, Neither system is wrong & both involve your time & money it’s just choosing the system that works for you.
Good luck - I’m sure you’ll get them sorted out - it’s obvious that you take their care seriously!
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We talk to them, only happy sounds ! - having a marital breakdown when handling sheep may be occasionally inevitable, but it must be conducted in happy voices. Sheep are brilliant at detecting threats from our verbal and non verbal behaviours.
[member=171193]Anvia[/member] this has me in hysterics :roflanim: Having a good old dingdong out in the field but with happy voices through gritted teeth. Brilliant! Seriously though, the sheep will detect that too - they'll be thinking " oh they're at it again, quick lets eat before they change their minds'. They can tell even the slightest change in tension in your body, something akin to recognising when the predator tenses its muscles to pounce. They even know when you've got the foot shears in your back pocket - they can't see them but they just know! They also quickly detect which animal you have your eyes on to catch up, so that one will hide herself in the thickest part of the flock. Looking sideways at them, or trying to be nonchalant doesn't fool them one little bit. And it's always when you're in a hurry that your tension shows.
You clearly know your sheep very well and have them beautifully handleable. We have learnt that if you want one, then round up the whole flock, it's far easier than trying to get the one on its own.
For your neighbour coming to round up his strays - sort your fences so you have no strays on your land. It doesn't matter who is responsible for the fence, him or you, you are the one whose flock is exposed to his flocks pests and diseases from his sheep, his boots and his quad tyres. We let no-one onto our land with vehicles, and people all dip their feet in disinfectant at the gate. We also have a double fence for our boundary, with a thick hedge in the middle for biosecurity ie to stop nose touching through a single fence. Expensive to do, but it makes a very real difference. The hedge also provides browse for the sheep as well as wildlife cover, food and nesting sites for birds.
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[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] - sheep are so far from stupid & I think us humans often forget how well our beasties know us & our behaviours - they know what the box of needles looks like & the sounds associated with that.... they study as all the time too! (My top tip there is to carry the equipment most likely to make them run for hills out to their pen in their feed bucket).
Luckily our neighbour is a fencing contractor..... and generally a great neighbour & friend - given numbers they run a few escapees are inevitable, particularly those coming down from common land.... some of them are completely wild & understandably so - that’s how they survive. These sheep are either digging under or jumping over. Without wishing to worry the OP.... I was evicting a group of our neighbours persistent offenders a week or so ago (all badger faces) & as I congratulated myself on finally getting them into our fully enclosed yard for him to collect (6-8ft stone walls over 2 ft thick wide with a strand of barb on top) they just elegantly & effortlessly jumped out!
Well... that made me give my unsociable welsh mountains a few extra sheep nuts that day.... and decided (again!) that whilst badger faces are really very pretty I’ll admire other people’s...