The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Fleecewife on November 20, 2015, 12:24:56 am
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It's happened to many of us - we go outside and find our beautiful hens dead, headless and mauled, strewn around the grass, often with the fox still around. These foxes are urban foxes which have been rounded up and transported into the countryside. They haven't got a clue how to hunt as in towns they scavenge or are fed by householders; in the countryside their only option if they are to survive is to kill free range poultry. I don't blame the foxes - it's misguided humans who are causing a problem
Who is doing this, and why? Do they imagine this is 'kind' to the fox? The whole thing is cruel, to the foxes and to the poultry, and to us, the poultry keepers and our children.
Anyway, I have been wondering how the word can be spread to as many urban dwellers as possible that their actions are extremely cruel. The explosion of urban fox numbers is something which must be dealt with within the towns, not just taking them and dumping them, moving the problem on to farmers, who are left to shoot the animals.
A possible source of help to spread this info is Springwatch, as loads and loads of folk watch the programme, all of whom would surely think of themselves as nature lovers.
So, I have written to Springwatch in the hope they will read my email. Does anyone else want to join me?
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A local wood was a dumping ground for the RSPCA who were seen releasing caged foxes. Someone went out with some dishes and tins of cat food, rattling and calling them then sat in their car and shot eight that came to feed. They were left out in a row at the entrance to deter anymore arrivals.
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I dont think its city dwellers loading foxes into estate cars and dropping them off its the RSPCA. And I completely agree with everything that you have said Fleece wife. I guess the NFU would be the one to take it up with them at the right level as smallholders are not the only ones effected. Lambs and outdoor reared piglets would also be taken. The poor things must be desperate for food after the rich pickings of restaurant bins and cat food brandishing townies armed with a camcorder who think they are Chris Packham.
I was talking about this to some one recently who told me that a farmer he knew had shot 11 over a period of weeks and everyone was a castrated male. What a massive waste of the charities resources especially at this time of year when we are approaching the season of abandoned pets.
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But if the Rspca dont release them in the countryside they lose face with the old lady brigade they work so hard to extort donations from...
Urban foxes when caught should be humanely destroyed end of story...
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I think that is a good idea FW but nobody wants to know the reality. Urban animals taken to the country which are then shot when they cause a nuisance. Not the sort of thing Springwatch would like to talk about. Next thing you will someone campaigning to give foxes the same protection as badgers, which also like to visit our hen houses.
Write to the RSPCA and ask if they catch urban foxes and what they do with them? I bet you don't get a reply.
Here there are foxes caught regularly that have a small piece of fur shaved from the leg and the assumption is that they are microchipped.
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I'm with you, FW, all the way!! I've had foxes come up to within feet of me, probably waiting to be fed. I've also had too many chickens, new born lambs and free range piglets taken.
A neighbour over the fields from me who lives in a quiet lane was woken one night by the sound of a vehicle , she looked from her window to find a transit van outside. Two people opened up the back then closed the doors and drove away. In the lane were a pack of bewildered foxes!!
I know they are also taken a few miles away to Dartmoor where they have scant chance of survival. Even local foxes struggle there in the winter.
Far better for the foxes and for poultry keepers and sheep farmers if they were kept in the town and numbers controlled by trapping and euthanasia. Also end the rearing of fox cubs, "sweet" as they are.
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Seeing as we're all in agreement why dont we start a petition on 38 degrees and outline the dangers, diseases and problems about them plus their impact on nature and the devastation not only to farmers and smallholders but to the environment. stress on the fact that its animal cruelty, should have a lot of signitures before you can say supercalifragalisticexpialadocious.
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If you post a petition I would sign it.
I have free ranged poultry for years without any real problem. New neighbours, who have moved from town and feed the wildlife, have attracted foxes to the area and these foxes are now not afraid of people.
There's always been foxes on the hill but in the past they have kept their distance and been wary of people.
The neighbours do not seem to understand the problem they are causing.
Lost so many hens they are now more or less confined to the barn.
Have had a few foxes shot and shooters out again tonight.
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Over 40 shot on the 300 acre local common land this year, many males castrated .... need I say more.
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If you post a petition I would sign it.
I have free ranged poultry for years without any real problem. New neighbours, who have moved from town and feed the wildlife, have attracted foxes to the area and these foxes are now not afraid of people.
There's always been foxes on the hill but in the past they have kept their distance and been wary of people.
The neighbours do not seem to understand the problem they are causing.
Lost so many hens they are now more or less confined to the barn.
Have had a few foxes shot and shooters out again tonight.
Could do with getting the fox hunters out there, professional ones of course.
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Not professional but very competent and safety conscious men who have come here to hunt for years.
They have done a good job of keeping fox and deer numbers under control.
Have no problem with either deer or foxes existing, in fact I like seeing both of them around. But with no predators their numbers can get out of control.
Horrified by the fact that RSPCA may be releasing urban foxes into the wild. Surely much kinder to kill them quickly.
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I have found lots written on the subject now, in various media. I feel some research coming on.
I am in Scotland and our Scottish SPCA is very different from the English version, but I wonder if they support rural releases. Would they tell me if I enquired?
I hadn't thought about piglets being taken, although I know about lambs - we have been lucky there, perhaps because our sheep are feisty and take no crap from foxes.
So, who knows how to set up an effective campaign, and where would it be delivered? Are the rules separate between Scotland and England/Wales? I can write but I'm no good at doing techie things like collecting signatures and organising campaigns........
I'll start with our local counsellor who is hot on rural problems.........
Thanks all, it's great to know you support the idea.
Some of the media comments I have read have pointed out that culling and dumping in the countryside (!) is not the whole solution for town foxes. We need a change of attitude from those who feed foxes, and those who leave rubbish dumped, don't close their bins properly, and drop half eaten take away food containers on the ground. Hence my thoughts that Springwatch could help.
There was a spate of foxes invading houses and attacking small children and babies - that opened some eyes, but not enough, and for the media was a bit of a shock horror one day wonder.
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Its the RSPCA. . . . .
And you don't have a hope in hell of stopping them. And they will deny everything.
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I wonder that it is not offence under Animal Wefare Act 2006 to abandon an animal ( including a wild animal being released) where it is likley to suffer in the wild because it is ill equipped to survive or the place of release is unsuitable. Is that worth looking into FW?
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I was told by someone that it is against the law to release urban foxes into the wild. Only way to catch whoevers releasing them is to film them releasing them and then report them.
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We had one a few years ago. It was skin and bone and not the least bit scared of us. Killed a few chickens. Our local farmer shot it when it was trying to get his cats. I think dumping them in the country side is so cruel when they cannot look after themselves.
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Thats my main issue Ghdp.
in fact I would leave the whole " your fox ate my chicken" argument aside for fear of making the argument seem too emotive. I think that even if foxes were vegetarian it would still be unacceptable and cruel. They are territorial omnivores. Snatching them from their environment and moving them into what will be another wild foxes environment. Depriving them of the only food source they have known and the fact that they have no fear of people and are starving to death just makes them ore vulnerable to trapping or shooting.
What if someone snatched the RSPCA officers from their home, whipped their bits off and dumped them in the rain Forrest surrounded by forbidden fruits and hostile natives. Poor little buggers it breaks my heart. It's just so irresponsible.
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We all know the RSPCA are above the law........
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I wonder that it is not offence under Animal Wefare Act 2006 to abandon an animal ( including a wild animal being released) where it is likley to suffer in the wild because it is ill equipped to survive or the place of release is unsuitable. Is that worth looking into FW?
Is anyone familiar with the law on this?
I have emailed the ScottishSPCA to ask what their policy is on release of urban foxes into the countryside. Lets see if they reply.
Would someone like to do the same for the RSPCA please?
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Will do so this morning!
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Thank you Devonlady :)
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I got this reply from the ScottishSPCA:
<< Thanks for your email, This isn’t something we would do, We would only attend to injured or sick foxes. If you have foxes coming into the garden that you want out. This is the number for the fox deterrence helpline who can give you advice 07771361226>>
My question to them was : << Could you please let me know what the ScottishSPCA's policy is on the capture of urban foxes and their release into the countryside.>>
Have you had a reply from the RSPCA Devonlady?
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What if someone snatched the RSPCA officers from their home, whipped their bits off and dumped them in the rain Forrest surrounded by forbidden fruits and hostile natives. Poor little buggers it breaks my heart. It's just so irresponsible.
Well I can't comment your comment with regard to RSPCA officers :thinking:
A lot of Urban foxes are in a poor way in towns. It is not their natural habitat and they are over populated but deal with it there don't pass the problem.
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I'm afraid we can't humanize animals, it is cruel for the foxes to be treated that way, but we cannot compare them to humans because they're animals. They remind me, the officers not the foxes, of those politicians which are asked certain things on question time and they deliberately avoid the questions, so they don't have to lie but on the other hand they don't have to tell the truth either, a sort of self preservation against public accusation. Who would like to set up the petition? The thing is I don't know all the ins and outs of the case and especially how to pronounce it without sounding tit for tat. We need it put straight to the point but in a heartfelt way not a nasty way.
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Amount of charitable funds spent on foxes, treatments/operations given and rehabilitation options Freedom of Information Request?
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"In addition, practices such as the capturing and translocation of wildlife, for example taking foxes from urban to rural areas, may be an offence under this section if it is considered that on release the animal is not capable of fending for itself and living independently. As above, if the animal actually suffers as a result of this action an additional offence under Section 4 (Unnecessary Suffering) may be committed."
found the above in a technical bulletin TIN072 published by Natural England in reference to Animal Welfare Act 2006.
The sheer ignorance of those who still see the countryside as a film set, inhabited by fluffy creatures is generally depressing - though my pet badger feels differently
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Amount of charitable funds spent on foxes, treatments/operations given and rehabilitation options Freedom of Information Request?
From what I learned in a recent RSPCA debacle involving some horses that they had shot even thought they had homes waiting, they can choose to opt out of FOI requests due to their charitable status.
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My son found a vixen about to scoff our SIlver Grey Dorking cockerel (1st prize Royal Three Counties) at 7.00 a.m. this morning. Too skinny and mangy to be a country fox (went through the sheep wire to escape). The cockerel had been so terrified it had repeatedly flown upwards in the run and the corrugated plastic roof had split away from the screws, so engineering its own demise. Bang goes my SGD conservation breeding programme for 2016.
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My son found a vixen about to scoff our SIlver Grey Dorking cockerel (1st prize Royal Three Counties) at 7.00 a.m. this morning. Too skinny and mangy to be a country fox (went through the sheep wire to escape). The cockerel had been so terrified it had repeatedly flown upwards in the run and the corrugated plastic roof had split away from the screws, so engineering its own demise. Bang goes my SGD conservation breeding programme for 2016.
Ah am so sorry to hear that, its horrible isn't it? I hope you manage to shoot the blasted fox when it comes back for more. We had a fox problem a few years back, but not anymore, in fact hardly any around my way now (maybe the odd one).
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I got this reply from the ScottishSPCA:
<< Thanks for your email, This isn’t something we would do, We would only attend to injured or sick foxes. If you have foxes coming into the garden that you want out. This is the number for the fox deterrence helpline who can give you advice 07771361226>>
Well, I've had an invitation to leave all I have to them and a list of dogs for adoption (oh and a message to say they didn't understand my question!) I can't find a 'phone number to call them but will keep trying!!
My question to them was : << Could you please let me know what the ScottishSPCA's policy is on the capture of urban foxes and their release into the countryside.>>
Have you had a reply from the RSPCA Devonlady?
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<<< Well, I've had an invitation to leave all I have to them and a list of dogs for adoption (oh and a message to say they didn't understand my question!) I can't find a 'phone number to call them but will keep trying!! >>>
I love it :roflanim: Well, only momentarily because they should be completely transparent in what they do.
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Folks, remember that there are specific charities such as the National Fox Welfare Trust (http://www.nfws.org.uk/). It doesn't seem that they're involved in relocating urban foxes for the hell of it, but they do rescue and rehabilitate injured foxes and then release them into the wild (where of course they won't usually have the skills to survive naturally, and also won't be afraid of people, thus causing them to then come after your livestock).
You can even volunteer to offer a safe release site if you wish. Don't all rush at once! :innocent:
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Some more thoughts FW
I guess there are several issues. The brief trawl of the internet i carried out suggested that this problem was certainly anecdotal - but that whether it was true was less universally accepted. Is that a widely held view? As a starting point I would suggest there is
1. A need to collate country wided data of where and when dead castrated male foxes are shot / corpses found in rural environments. Is there an identifed pattern / area of the country?
2. Identify who can and will verify that data.
3. Collate photographs (including pictures of shaved fur or purple spray on foxes as described above)
On that basis the fact of rehabilitation of foxes into the wild from urban areas is more likely to be universally accepted which must be the baseline before a successful campaign to stop it. Then should the approach be to challenge the RSPCA and its equivalents on the steps they are taking to educate the misguided and to prosecute the cruel involved in this.
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Good points - BUT someone has to do all that research. It would require a whole lot of organisation, the devotion of masses of time, the ability to organise a campaign and in fact an action group. As I've said earlier, I don't have the skills or abilities to do that, so unless someone here does, and is prepared to take it on, then it just isn't going to happen.
My original idea was simply to publicise the anecdotal evidence to make sure as many people as possible who might be involved in moving these animals into the countryside would have cause to think again. I thought of Springwatch as they will have a giant budget which they can use for some initial research before they decide if there's a case to answer.
In fact there are likely already groups involved in preventing this - just need to find them.
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Yes. A huge task. I will also see if I can identify a group already collating this and post if I do.
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I think Springwatch in an excellent idea. I live in a city and know people who feed foxes (you can't say anything to them as they fly into a rage) and they very much see themselves as animal lovers* and one definitely watches Springwatch. They could extend it a little to other animals as unfortunately I know someone who does this with RATS. I don't really understand why it is cruel to kill a rat but not to take what is a very intelligent and social animals and dump it in a strange place on its own but there you go. This person is also a big fox fan and feeds and encourages them despite keeping chickens.
As a thought, re. fox dumping. Could pest control companies be doing some dumping? I am not sure that shooting would be allowed in an urban area so maybe some unscrupulous ones trap them then just chuck them out of the van later. Saves on bullets and body disposal.
*As a bit of a defence, city people are very much removed from nature and starved of it. A city is an unnatural place for Homo sapiens and they are likely to do strange and aggravating things in such a strange habitat.
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Thank you Ghdp - that's great.
Some perceptive comments Min. We used to live in Edinburgh too, eons ago - the vixens would walk up and down the middle of the street screaming alarmingly for a mate. Sounded like someone was being murdered. They would have standoffs with our cats, and hedgehogs would keep them away from their feeding bowls by sitting in them. We wouldn't have dreamed of feeding the foxes, but they came off the golf course into our garden.
Rats are really intelligent, but sadly they have to go but by the most humane method possible. But people don't like their tails, whereas foxes look very cute and appealing, with big fluffy brushes. Mmmm! I do see your point about people in cities being starved of wildlife, so they love to 'tame' foxes and badgers to come into their gardens, seagulls too. That's all fine but why are these poor foxes then dumped out into the countryside. In fact I'm wondering if those who feed foxes might actually be our allies, as they can appreciate the cruelty of taking their pets and dumping them where they will inevitably die, by one method or another.
So is it worth looking further into the pest control companies, or are they even less likely to admit to dumping?
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The chances of you getting an honest answer from the RSPCA is pretty much nill. They are a loathsome organisation!
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The chances of you getting an honest answer from the RSPCA is pretty much nill.
Their legal department would not allow them to give an answer as it may be used against them.
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That's all fine but why are these poor foxes then dumped out into the countryside. In fact I'm wondering if those who feed foxes might actually be our allies, as they can appreciate the cruelty of taking their pets and dumping them where they will inevitably die, by one method or another.
Hmm, yes I didn't think of that. And then it could be gently suggested to stop feeding them. ;) Now I have to admit I do like to see an urban fox now and again but making pets of them is just not right.
I have been racking my brains on how to deal with potential rouge(sp?) pest control companies and I can't think of anything. They would deny it and catching them at it might be difficult and potentially hazardous as they might get aggressive when caught in the act. What is that other programme where they chase dodgy business people about in the street? Watchdog? What would we do without the BBC! :D
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Now that's what I like ..... lateral thinking! Shall we suggest Watchdog investigates?
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It would definitely be worth asking them and seeing if they would take it on. It's not a programme I watch, but if this is the sort of investigation they might carry out then yes, please do contact them :thumbsup:
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What about talking the the NFU, wouldn't they look into it, especially seeing as it is illegal and causes damage to farmers and smallholders???