While I’m posting: I don’t hear much debate about vegans’ use of plastics, derived from fossil fuels driving climate change, or of cotton which is a very resource-hungry product.
if it is morraly wrong for a vegan to eat truffles found by working pigs. then is it also 'vegan' morraly wrong for a working rescue dog to save survivors of earthquakes???
just a thought
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants? :innocent:
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants? :innocent:
They do. They believe that there are plenty of pollinating insects doing their thing without human intervention, and that farming bees for honey is morally wrong.
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants? :innocent:
They do. They believe that there are plenty of pollinating insects doing their thing without human intervention, and that farming bees for honey is morally wrong.
Actually I agree with that. I have never kept hive bees and I have never collected any honey. I do eat it though after others have collected it :roflanim: The real reason for that is that for most of my life honey bees have given me the creeps, although I have taught myself to love them now. Instead of keeping captive bees, we provide an environment where wild bees can prosper.
When I posed this question somewhereorother I was told that vegans are quite happy to keep hive bees because what they are doing is their natural behaviour. I don't remember there being a comment on the stealing on their honey and replacing it with man-made stuff.
I'm no expert in honey bee-keeping, but i understand that it is highly interventional. Beef cattle have a much easier life ;)
I joined the local Bee Club when i got an allotment, thinking I'd need the bees for pollination. I learned in one evening that it is complex, time-consuming and a commitment, that bees travel up to 3km from the hive, and that the secretary of the local Bee Club had 50,000 bees within 3km of my allotment - so I never bothered to go again, and I never got my own bees! lol
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants? :innocent:
They do. They believe that there are plenty of pollinating insects doing their thing without human intervention, and that farming bees for honey is morally wrong.
Actually I agree with that. I have never kept hive bees and I have never collected any honey. I do eat it though after others have collected it :roflanim: The real reason for that is that for most of my life honey bees have given me the creeps, although I have taught myself to love them now. Instead of keeping captive bees, we provide an environment where wild bees can prosper.
When I posed this question somewhereorother I was told that vegans are quite happy to keep hive bees because what they are doing is their natural behaviour. I don't remember there being a comment on the stealing on their honey and replacing it with man-made stuff.
I don't think you can describe honey bees as captive! There are beekeepers who don't take honey from their hives and don't practise swarm control. Unfortunately there are not many wild honey bees and the vast majority of the honey bee population survives because of beekeepers.
[size=100%]However, honey bees are not essential to the pollination of our food crops, as long as we have healthy populations of wild bees, butterflies, flies, hoverflies, (wind), and in some countries, fruit bats and humming birds.[/size][/color]Do we not have a declining number of wild bees and insects in general?
Whatever I think of these ideals, I'm still pretty impressed by the determination of these people to change their lives for their good intentions.
crikey there has been a real explosion of anti veganism this year- when all the corporate groups are falling over themselves to offer vegan alternatives to their meat norms! Sorry- but environmentalistsn and ethnologists all concur with a rising human population that a non animal diet is both sustainable and ethical. Humans have gone well beyond the hunter gatherer- indeed more of the population has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of the foods they rely on. This is not natural. So dont condone veganism for being as such- until you get omnivores to be more in tune with their food sources do not ridicule vegans for being opposed to it. Veganism is not a threat to the planet, humans and their capacity to embrace unnatural processes, and be in denial of natural processes- are.
crikey there has been a real explosion of anti veganism this year- when all the corporate groups are falling over themselves to offer vegan alternatives to their meat norms! Sorry- but environmentalistsn and ethnologists all concur with a rising human population that a non animal diet is both sustainable and ethical. Humans have gone well beyond the hunter gatherer- indeed more of the population has nothing whatsoever to do with the production of the foods they rely on. This is not natural. So dont condone veganism for being as such- until you get omnivores to be more in tune with their food sources do not ridicule vegans for being opposed to it. Veganism is not a threat to the planet, humans and their capacity to embrace unnatural processes, and be in denial of natural processes- are.
.... I am not anti meat eating per sei, i am anti the alien way this world has turned food production into something corrupt and unsustainable ( and i include farming of the worlds vegetables in that statement too).I don't think many of us, actually, are that far apart in our views about the way our food should be produced, i.e. more sustainably!
Wonder if vegans have a problem with us keeping (working) bees for honey and also pollinating their plants? :innocent:Some actually do have problems with that. I heard of that since time ago.
Sure if every meat eater i met said they would happily go and kill an animal to meet their dietary needs then id say good on you. But instead just today i witness an undercover video of abattoir workers and their deplorable and heinous behaviour towards the sheep they were stunning and slaughtering, and my belief that animal farming has gone totally upside down is confirmed- its not a lie, a media whipped up story- it is visual evidence that workers had no concern for the welfare of these sheep prior to slaughter. When atrocities like this are finally wiped out- then do talk to me again about which of us has the wrong illusion about animal farming :(
"
Most of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.
It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.QuoteMost of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.
What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?
I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
QuoteI am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment
Is there not a big difference between feeling like and knowing you are doing something for the environment?
harmony- yes a vegan would say better a world without pet dogs than a world of animal sanctuaries full to the rafters with mistreated and abandoned dogs (which is where we currently stand- i worked in a dog shelter for a while too- no life for a dog)
so by your arguement there are many bad things but because its not ALL bad we can just forget about it then?- Yes i do believe banning is the ultimate solution. But as i have said to many extreme vegans (we have fb forums too) i said the chances of making the world vegan in the next hundred years are slim to 0% whereas the chance of making a difference to farm animals lives right now in campaigning for better conditions- not outright demanding a ban is very high indeed. So, among other issues, i will continue to highlight the terrible things that happen in slaughterhouses- campaigning for mandatory cctv which can be independently inspected is a start (coming soon to Scotland- come on the rest of the UK!). Our animal welfare laws say a farm animals welfare should be assured up to the point of slaughter. If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?
harmony you misread me. that happens a lot on internet i find. i said a world .....of sanctuaries that are full to the rafters- and nearly every sanctuary i have been involved with had issues with accepting more than they can acommodate. so i know i am correct.
If they had been my sheep i would be outraged that i had done everything to give them the best quality of life only for them to be abused and tortured by the abbatoir staff before finally being dead. Surely high welfare meat (eg smallholders animals) means at all stages of production?
It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.QuoteMost of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.
What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?
I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.
In fact grassland stores carbon much faster than trees - grass grows much more dry mass per year per acre than forest. We just see 100 year old forest and see lots of carbon stored in branches etc. Its not as obvious with grass - but as I said the life of grass happens much faster than oak.It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.QuoteMost of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.
What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?
I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.
Plus, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not just trees that lock up carbon, other vegetation systems do exactly the same. Permanent pastureland, floes, taiga, scrubland, peat bogs, veldt, the grasslands of Africa, all these store Carbon to the same extent as trees. The bandwagon to replace all these with endless trees is a dangerous move. We need to understand the whole of the science, the ecology, then be selective of where we plant our trees, and where we grow our crops, and where we leave well alone.
Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.
I personally couldn't care less about veganism, any more than I care about Sharia law, or people that believe the world is flat. (Yes some still do!)
The world is full of people with different opinions. I may believe they are wrong, but I still respect their right to their opinion.
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: very good sally :thumbsup:
yes harmony- please stop interpreting my words your own way. I SAID that banning is the "absolute solution" to the issue- i didnt say i believed in a ban!!! No-one can deny a ban is the absolute solution to a lot of things- slavery, child labour, fox hunting, plastics, cigarettes- some happened to be more likely than others, and as i have tried to point out i see the arguement from both sides- vegans and farmers, and id rather see changes in farming (and yes that likely includes a reduction in numbers and making animals individuals in our attitude and mindsets again) as that is more achieveable than the world going vegan, short term.
So my first statement- crikey there is a lot of anti veganism ON HERE is all too clear. Seems people here have preconceived ideas that all vegans are crackpots and "silly" . Thanks but that gets us all no-where in the way this planet and our food production is going. And we ALL have an input into how that progresses.
Did anyone here go to the Oxford REAL Farming Conference?
Loads of really exciting talks there about no till arable, pasture fed, silvopasture, agroforestry, soya use in animal feeds, organic market gardening e.t.c. They also had a session with George Monbiot, Richard Young, Patrick Holden and others where they discussed pasture fed meat, sustainable agriculture, veganism and factory grown meat/ food. Really interesting stuff!
https://orfc.org.uk
In fact grassland stores carbon much faster than trees - grass grows much more dry mass per year per acre than forest. We just see 100 year old forest and see lots of carbon stored in branches etc. Its not as obvious with grass - but as I said the life of grass happens much faster than oak.It's very simple actually - when the grass grows 10 inches tall the roots also grow around 10 inches. When the cow eats 7 inches from the top - 7 inches of the roots will die of and stay in the soil as carbon - fixed from the atmosphere. Your cow will then poo on the grass this fertilizing the soil even more with mass of nutrients and nitrogen.QuoteMost of us on TAS are well-rehearsed in the arguments for extensive, pasture-fed meat and dairy, and as frustrated as I am that there seems to be no realistic recipe for sustainable veganism in the UK - but that doesn't stop the spread of it.
What are the arguments for pasture fed meat and dairy?
How will grassland save the world?
I am not a vegan although recently i have started reducing meat levels to feel like i am doing something for the environment and i tried the vegan KFC burger and thought it was great. I have been raising my own meat for a few years now and would love to raise all my own meat but that's not an option for me because i do not have much space.
When you plough a field to grow maize for silage you realise a massive amount of nitrogen and carbon from soil into the atmosphere. You use a lot of fossil fuel, water, artificial fertilizers etc. And cows could do all the job for you and still FIX the carbon and nitrogen instead if realising it.
Plus, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not just trees that lock up carbon, other vegetation systems do exactly the same. Permanent pastureland, floes, taiga, scrubland, peat bogs, veldt, the grasslands of Africa, all these store Carbon to the same extent as trees. The bandwagon to replace all these with endless trees is a dangerous move. We need to understand the whole of the science, the ecology, then be selective of where we plant our trees, and where we grow our crops, and where we leave well alone.
I think its the intensive, artificial, large scale commercial farming that a lot of vegans abhor (so do I).
I'm not saying we should ban all these things, pets and livestock farming, but that I think there are some sound arguments for addressing the exploitation of animals and considering other angles of welfare, etc.
The world will still have wild animals when all the domestic ones die of old age and are not replaced due to continued breeding
Steph Hen- i was not direcctly affected til this winter but this island (a haven for migratory birds) is over run with feral cats. The folk who originally brought cats here (prob to keep mice down in house and barn- there are no rats nor foxes here) have basically turned their back on them- the cats reproduce at liberty, and litters of kittens are not tamed so they also remain unsterilised and breed themselves- and so on and so on.
Id had cats sleeping in my barn but this winter discovered a litter (i found a litter 3 years ago but did not encourage the cats so they left once old enough to follow mom). So i decided to go about taming the family in order to in the next few weeks now catch them and get them neutered. They are costing me fortune in food- already half a dozen adult entire cats have found out about the free food and visit daily too now. I do not want this to become a cat sanctuary and i dont appreciate the number od dead birds mom brings to her kitten on a regular basis. I can not see any other way than to instigate a steriliation programme- of course i could catch them all and put them to a sanctuary and make them someone elses problem, but i feel that is a wrong use of resources . Its a human nature to procreate too- but that hasnt exactly done the world any favours either has it?! (and no i dont have kids)
[member=174828]messyhoose[/member], I want to thank you for engaging in this conversation; I hope it isn't feeling too much like being in the lion's den! Hopefully we will all improve our understanding as we discuss these issues :-*
1. I don't think many of us would argue for farming for pelts. Those of us on the meat-eating side of the debate probably all feel that skins / pelts etc from animals that were being killed anyway should be used. What would be the vegan view on using skins and pelts from animals that had lived out their alloted span?
2. Gosh, we could have a whole topic on just this aspect. I have mixed feelings about the idea of us all hunting wild animals for our food... unfortunately, plenty of suffering is caused by hunters not getting a clean shot, so I think that if we are to eat meat at all (other than roadkill), then personally I would prefer the animals to be slaughtered humanely by trained operatives with all the appropriate equipment and backup. And the same applies to being prepared to kill our own meat; I understand completely the rationale behind saying that meat eaters should kill their own meat, but in practise I would again prefer that no animals are killed by anyone who isn't trained to do it, and who doesn't have all the appropriate equipment, and backup present, to ensure that suffering is minimised - especially if something goes wrong.
3. In practise, this would not be possible. There would have to be a phased approach, where the numbers are reduced over a period of years, or there would have to be a mass slaughter. In either case, there will have to be slaughter of animals over a transition period. I will explain some of the reasons why. Just looking at sheep, Googling tells me that there are approx 14.5 million breeding ewes in the UK, and approx 14.5 million lambs / sheep are slaughtered each year. Introducing a ban on slaughter after lambing would be impractical; many farms (my own included) do not have the facilities to keep all the lambs on over winter, and there simply isn't the ground / shelter / feed in the country to keep all one year's lambs alive for the rest of their natural lives. So it would cause untold suffering and other animal welfare issues to introduce a ban on slaughter once the season's crop of lambs have been born. So the first thing would be to ban tupping, so that from that point on, no more lambs are produced. Now we have the situation where there are 14.5 million ewes, and probably around 300,000-500,000 tups on top of that, who need to eat, have medications, be sheared, be checked every day and so on. If you ask a farming organisation or you ask a sheep sanctuary, you will get a similar answer - in terms of actual spend, it costs approx £30 per annum per sheep to keep them alive, well and happy. I make that around £450 million per annum, decreasing over five to eight years, as the sheep die off naturally. Total cost to feed and treat the national flock until they have died off, approx £2 billion pounds. Where is that funding coming from? And on top of that, you have the time of the humans to undertake all that care. There won't be enough volunteers to shepherd 15 million sheep, so if we said one full-time human could shepherd 2,000 sheep (they will take less looking after if they are not lambing, so this is my best guess), then we also need to find wages for approx 7,500 full-time shepherds. That's another £120 million per annum, taking the total cost of your plan - for sheep alone - to around £2.5 billion. (And that is without accounting for the thousands and thousands of jobs lost in the agricultural services sector, which I would agree is something that would just have to be absorbed - but does have to be funded from somewhere. I have no figure for that, but I can't imagine it being less than another £billion.)
I won't go through the whole rigmarole in detail again for cattle, but Google says we have 10 million breeding cattle, and the last I checked it cost £300 pa per head to keep a cow. Cows live longer than sheep, and I suspect would need more than one person per 2,000 to care for them. So at a rough guess, the cost of your plan for cattle would be around £20-£25 billion. (And the unbred 10 million cows would be coming a-bulling every 21 days for up to ten years, screaming the place down, busting fences, desperate to get laid... )
And none of that contemplates the use of the land for the animals to graze, the buildings and equipment to care for them, etc. Approx 3 million hectares are used at present. Stopping breeding would reduce that, but even if the need for grazing land reduced to 1 million hectares, this ground has to be paid for. Compulsory purchase would cost maybe around £5 billion, then of course there is ongoing maintenance to fund.
Next, pigs. Approx 400 million breeding sows... And another issue here, besides the simple cost per head / lifespan costs. Most of these pigs are housed, and many would not adapt to a life outdoors, even if the land could be found.
So, if we were to change to a vegan society, there would seem to me to be two options. Option 1 is to plan a transition period of 10-20 years, with the production of farmed meat being controlled over that period. By the end of the period, there would be effectively no sheep, cattle or pigs. Option 2 is to do the mass slaughter and export all the meat / meat products / byproducts to countries which are not going vegan. I suspect this would cost considerably less than your plan. There is probably a composite of Options 1 and 2 which is what would actually happen, with the transition period being speeded up as we export as much meat as possible over the period to reduce numbers as quickly as possible, but with the whole being funded by the sales of meat throughout the period.
4. I remain interested to hear about the actual crops, the actual diet, that could be produced locally, ethically, etc, to feed the 66+ million people in the UK. I am sure you do source your own food as ethically as you say. But I have never yet had an answer from anyone about how this could be scaled up for the whole population. I say this not to be provocative but because, in the absence of an answer, as a farmer, I genuinely do not understand how it could be done in the UK. (Much more feasible in the US, where the land mass spans so many different climates, soil types, etc, that pretty much anything can be produced somewhere.)
5. As someone who cares for the environment and about animal welfare, I would support a law which bans the export and import of live animals except in very tightly controlled circumstances. And - whether we go vegan or not - another law banning the import of unnecessary foodstuffs.
6. How things came about isn't particularly relevant any more, in my view. We are where we are, and we have to get to where we want to be from here. In my Utopia, where all our meat and plant-based foods are produced ethically and locally, there is a wonderful cycle where we and our animals live synergistically. We provide grass for our cows and sheep, enabling them to fulfill their life goals of producing and rearing young. We take the surplus milk and meat from this equation. Our waste food matter feeds pigs, who similarly live productive, happy lives, and again, surplus comes back to us. We would eat a lot less meat than we do now, but the livestock with whom we share our ground enable us to keep our land in good heart and the acreage in the UK is able to sustainably produce enough for us all.
7. I respect you, messyhoose, as I can clearly see that you practise what you preach, and like myself, you engage in conversation not just to educate but also to learn. Well, I do not do particularly well in practising what I preach when it comes to the plant-based elements of my diet; we produce what we can here, but the ground is exposed, coastal, shallow clay and is really only suited to growing grass! But we are, here, pretty much self-sufficient in beef, lamb/mutton and pork/ham, in milk / dairy, and will be, when we get the chickens reestablished, in eggs. The labour costs to achieve this are insane, and yet we do it anyway, because of our passion in caring for the environment, animal welfare, and living as sustainably as we can.The world will still have wild animals when all the domestic ones die of old age and are not replaced due to continued breeding
I think we can't know that this is true. The amount of land, and management of that land, needed to grow the plant-based food for the entire world population, may well put just as much if not more pressure on natural habitats and wild creatures.
But if 14 mil sheep are in the Uk and 14 mil sheep are eaten annually it seems on paper that only a year will be needed before the sheep "issue" is no longer an issue...??
3) i have already explained how a vegan society would come about- animals would NOT be killed off in a a bloody wave- animals currently alive would be sheltered and NO MORE BREEDING would then bring about the end of livestock farming over a fairly long period of time, possibly decades. I really hate repeating myself.
It seems to be true the UK is more self sufficient in meat than it is vegetables. That is not necessarily because it can not be done- just that meat production and export was more lucrative.
There is a body of people who think the UK should put more land to vegetable for humans and less crops for animals (and yes i know smallholders mostly rely on natural grass their animal feed that can not be said for the farms where most of the meat production is coming from (high inputs= high outputs).
While pastoral beef farming is lovely and ecologically sound how much beef farming is actually in fact in feedlots and so barren of wildlife?
a farmer, nor indeed any animal keeper does NOT need to be trained in animal care in the current Laws!!
my statement about "producing your own" was not fired at you smallholders- again BGov said they would respect vegans if they produced all their own food. Lucky you lot to have land but the vast number of meat eating citizens living in cities do not produce their own meat or veg so why have a go at just vegans with a statement like that??
So the diet- i avoid as much as possible processed foods and try to buy local (but as am in orkney no food is local local if you know what i mean).
when i worked on organic smallholdings i ate porridge made from our own milled oats, homemade wine, baked all our own bread and cakes, ate frugally but deliciously- soup and bread lunch and a cooked meal at night (assorted seasonal veg from the farm, peas and beans and nuts for protein (tinned or dried)
There seems to be 2 tangled arguements here- one is anti vegans cos it would change the face of agriculture, change the use of land in the UK and change the way we see the countryside (manmade as it is already) BUT you can not blame vegans for unsustainable diets- i know plenty of omnivores who eat imported meat, exotic fruit and veg or merely out of season fruit and veg without even a glance at the country of origin.
So we are all responsible for making environmentally aware food choices, and if anything cos vegans spend a lot of time researching what they can and can not eat they tend to already ahead of the class in this knowledge.
Veganism wont destroy the planet, Humans will :(
good grief harmony. really? do you choose to not understand stuff deliberately? i will not engage with someone deliberately demonstrating intolerance and ignorance. not here- life is too short and quite frankly the debate here is not having any effect on the real issues in the real world. I will continue to spend my valuable time in meaningful debates. Am very sad to repeatedly see this childish level of ignorance or is is arrogance? I have not played devils advocate on here (which pointedly farmers who post on animal welfare forums like to do). Seems farmers like to wind up people who choose not to eat meat for entirely understandable ethical reasons. why is that? TBH i dont care, your questions have recycled despite being given answers (more consise answers available online, dont take a genius to search). ive got the measure of some on here now.
good grief harmony. really? do you choose to not understand stuff deliberately? i will not engage with someone deliberately demonstrating intolerance and ignorance. not here- life is too short and quite frankly the debate here is not having any effect on the real issues in the real world. I will continue to spend my valuable time in meaningful debates. Am very sad to repeatedly see this childish level of ignorance or is is arrogance? I have not played devils advocate on here (which pointedly farmers who post on animal welfare forums like to do). Seems farmers like to wind up people who choose not to eat meat for entirely understandable ethical reasons. why is that? TBH i dont care, your questions have recycled despite being given answers (more consise answers available online, dont take a genius to search). ive got the measure of some on here now.
This may come over as very flippant and its really not meant in that way but I think there are just too many people - bring on the pandemics :coat:
Year 2070:
"Ok team, put your harnesses on, we have 2 acres to plough today."
"Excuse me plough-person, but have you done the horsepower/"manpower" conversion calculation as I seem to think we could do with 50 of us for 2 acres per day rather than just us 4 !"
"Look, you all decided to not exploit animals in any way and to protect the environment and now there are no animals and, despite all our efforts on the CO2 front, the weather forecast says it's today or else. So are you ready ... ?"
"What about the worms ?"
"... Pull"
Fair point GBov re power stations - I wonder how many people would sacrifice themselves if it would truly help the planet survive - I might be persuaded :thinking:
Year 2070:
"Ok team, put your harnesses on, we have 2 acres to plough today."
"Excuse me plough-person, but have you done the horsepower/"manpower" conversion calculation as I seem to think we could do with 50 of us for 2 acres per day rather than just us 4 !"
"Look, you all decided to not exploit animals in any way and to protect the environment and now there are no animals and, despite all our efforts on the CO2 front, the weather forecast says it's today or else. So are you ready ... ?"
"What about the worms ?"
"... Pull"
Can I steal this for posting elsewhere (without your details) please? It's brillian!
Do you think we should run with it and lobby our MP? Its really thinking outside the box isnt it :roflanim:
Fair point GBov re power stations - I wonder how many people would sacrifice themselves if it would truly help the planet survive - I might be persuaded :thinking:
My mind is boggling :o Do you mean you will volunteer yourself as power station fuel Polyanya? You know it might not be such a bad idea (not the volunteering bit) If instead of all those expensive cremations using power, once we've finished with our bodies, we could just be lobbed into the nearest power station furnace ;D that would save some virgin forest from around the world, and the transport costs to reach our power stations. Nor would we need the knackers for our deadstock :idea: Mm - I like it :eyelashes:
Fair point GBov re power stations - I wonder how many people would sacrifice themselves if it would truly help the planet survive - I might be persuaded :thinking:
My mind is boggling :o Do you mean you will volunteer yourself as power station fuel Polyanya? You know it might not be such a bad idea (not the volunteering bit) If instead of all those expensive cremations using power, once we've finished with our bodies, we could just be lobbed into the nearest power station furnace ;D that would save some virgin forest from around the world, and the transport costs to reach our power stations. Nor would we need the knackers for our deadstock :idea: Mm - I like it :eyelashes:
I'm getting a bit worried about talk of sacrifice and volunteering (!), but it would make so much sense if all inedible dead-stock (animal or human) was used to help power the grid. However, I would hope that my body's transport from hospital mortuary to power-station incinerator in due course will not be by a standard recycling lorry.
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!
Surely burial is simpler and doesn't require big composting chambers, heat, fuel etc, just a hole in the ground and Nature does the rest?
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!
I have it written into my will that I'm to be fed to the pigs (i.e. properly recycled). My lawyer wasn't happy with it, and apparently it isn't currently legal but if we really want to save the planet we need to think differently. Why would it be ok for us to eat an animal but not ok for them to eat us? Cremate me and I contribute to unnecessary waste of fuel and emissions; bury me and I'm taking up space that could be put to better use; chuck me in a ditch and I'll contaminate the water... feed me to the badgers or pigs and I'll be wholly recycled and have contributed something useful to the ecology lifecycle... and if you don't want to eat the pig that ate me, then feed me to a breeding boar and eat the offspring rather than the primary consumer!
On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!
I have it written into my will that I'm to be fed to the pigs (i.e. properly recycled). My lawyer wasn't happy with it, and apparently it isn't currently legal but if we really want to save the planet we need to think differently. Why would it be ok for us to eat an animal but not ok for them to eat us? Cremate me and I contribute to unnecessary waste of fuel and emissions; bury me and I'm taking up space that could be put to better use; chuck me in a ditch and I'll contaminate the water... feed me to the badgers or pigs and I'll be wholly recycled and have contributed something useful to the ecology lifecycle... and if you don't want to eat the pig that ate me, then feed me to a breeding boar and eat the offspring rather than the primary consumer!
When people have left their bodies to hounds the only way round the law is to cremate the person and then feed the ashes.On the interesting subject of what to do with our bodies - rather than the boring subject of veganism - a US company is preparing to offer a human body composting service !!
I have it written into my will that I'm to be fed to the pigs (i.e. properly recycled). My lawyer wasn't happy with it, and apparently it isn't currently legal but if we really want to save the planet we need to think differently. Why would it be ok for us to eat an animal but not ok for them to eat us? Cremate me and I contribute to unnecessary waste of fuel and emissions; bury me and I'm taking up space that could be put to better use; chuck me in a ditch and I'll contaminate the water... feed me to the badgers or pigs and I'll be wholly recycled and have contributed something useful to the ecology lifecycle... and if you don't want to eat the pig that ate me, then feed me to a breeding boar and eat the offspring rather than the primary consumer!
Still on the "bodies" subject, I met someone last year who is working with a company on dissolving bodies rather than cremation, a much more environmentally friendly option. Apparently it will happen!