The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: wonderwooly on January 27, 2015, 09:40:33 am
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Birthing through a prolapse harness?
I have a ewe, found in the field two days ago with major prolapses,
she is about ready to birth, and we attached a harness strait away after
having put back in what had come out- with some difficulty. Administered
antibiotic, oxitetracycline. Kept her hurdled for 24hr and she seems ok,
we took her temperature, it was normal. She is walking about with the flock, chewing cud, eating, pooing with some straining.
I have dealt with prolapse before, and this was a bit different, not just the red watermelon but something else too, like intestines; a large grapefruit, one smaller (kiwi sized) lump plus a large fanned out tube attached by webbing. I just don't know. either way it all went back in within the hour and an oxytetracylin jab to be on the safe side.
So I am more concerned than normal. Could it be a rupture of some sort? I don't want her to suffer, or lose the lamb/s. but like I said there is no temperature and she seems OK in the harness.
Vet seemed to think we did everything right so far, but didn't see the intestinal(?) bit. I had thought the girls were a three weeks off lambing, however found two lambs in field this morning so re-looked at dates and sure enough it is possible just from the
first day the ram was in.
She could lamb any day, can she lamb through the harness, the hole doesn't look big enough for a lambs head? what does a caesarian entail? any advice please. Thanks
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They can lamb through harnesses though it is harder. It is difficult to know from your description what you had seen so hard to advise, a photo would have been helpful. Could she possibly have lambed/aborted with the fanned out bit being foetal membranes? I doubt she would be looking too happy if indeed they were intestines though I suppose it could have been omentum...
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As regards a C-section they are straight forward. I do it roughly thus but everyone is different:
The ewe is given an epidural and planipart. Restrained on a table with ropes on her RHS. Her LHS is clipped behind the ribs, sterelized with a lot of hibi scrub, local infused in a line or L shape, surgical spirit everywhere then an incision made approx. 5" long. The back leg is located and the uterus cut, lambs removed. Uterus sewn up with degradable suture in two layers. Intra abdominal penicillin if your vet does this. Muscle layers sewn together in separate layers if possible. Skin closed with nylon. Metacam, Oxytocin and IM Pen Strep and away she goes.
Never lost a ewe due to infection or other C-sec complications vs cattle where things are much harder to control due to size (eg. have to do section on-farm, cannot provide a clean area to do surgery the farmer has a dirty shed, poor restraint of cow and she decides to go down on LHS when abdomen open and vet not strong enough to hold her up against wall and do abdominal surgery/cross stitch - though I did manage this once in a little WB heifer tbh I don't think I'd bother anymore).
Lamb/calf survival is all down to the farmer/situation and not much under the Vets control. I hope this helps, I doubt it will come to that though.
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ps assuming it is a simple cervical prolapse she may well need lambing, keep clean, take your time and use lots of lube and gently repel the prolapse as you pull the lamb. If in doubt please call your Vet, its not a job for brute force
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Sorry, no photos. Realised straight away afterwards that would have been a good idea. Thanks for the quick response.
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No problem, hope it works out ok :fc:
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Hello again,
After a fairly thorough search the only image i can come up with is this (you prob have to cut and paste the link):
http://www.flockandherd.net.au/sheep/reader/vaginal%20rupture.html (http://www.flockandherd.net.au/sheep/reader/vaginal%20rupture.html)
The extra part of the prolapse resembled the first photo in case 3.
Sorry for the grim pics. But even after another search of 'sheep + vaginal rupture + caecum/intestine' I haven't come up with any other image that even remotely resembles it. The ends of the "intestine" part weren't dark, they were fresh and red, with white and red on the connecting web.
In terms of the prolapse i put the smaller lump back in first, then the possible "intestines", which i had to push up and tuck in so they held, then forced the main prolapse back in afterwards. But we just acted as fast and as sensibly as we could, i don't see how i can possibly have got it all back in the right order/place. I'm almost certain she won't lamb and survive but she is due this week.
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I should probably also say that she is 7 years old so, not trying to be unkind, but the lamb(s) are probably more important(?) than her.
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And also, in reply to your first reply!, she is still pregnant, we can see the lamb moving. So it's not foetal membranes, the webbing was also more substantial than the images i found of omentum; thicker and redder. Sorry for so much info, but the vet didn't see it either and she says to just observe and with no fever, eating and on reasonable form that's all good signs.
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Anything is possible so it could be that she had ruptured, more likely as she is so well is that it was a vaginal prolapse that for what ever reason looked odd. A possible solution for you as you beleive she is likely to go down hill is to induce the ewe with a shot of Dex. then you know she will lamb within 48 hrs and can be on the alert potentially increasing lamb survival chances? Just a thought.
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If you keep a careful eye on her you may be able to see hollows each side of her pelvis as the lambs drop and move into position for the birth process. If you watch for several signs of lambing such as this+ pawing the ground, getting up and then lying down gain, waterbag, pushing, etc., then it should be safe to remove the harness. We always have a clean sheet ready in a plastic bag, just in case a ewe has a massive prolapse - never had to use it yet, I'm very glad to say.
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Thanks both of you. Induction sounds like a possible option, that would give us the security of being there, I'll talk to the vet about the Dexamethasone.
In terms of signs of labour, because she has a low stomach and a tendency to prolapse, she has had the hollows for a few days already, so no change. She's lying down a lot because she's knackered after the prolapse too. We'll keep a close eye for the other signs and the sheet in a bag tip is great. Packed it, thanks.
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sorry to be late to the discussion, but i have had similar proplems to you the last couple of years and i have a couple of things to add. The first is can you keep her in a small flat area with a friend say about 6-8 square meters, so you can watch her like a hawk. The flat stops her from lyinghead uphill and puttingstrain down to the end when she poos. get her up dont let her lie down all the time, maybe hay up high so she has to stand to eat. and when she even looks like she might be lambing either vet it or give her a hand yourself. she has every chance of producing live lambs but she will probably need stitched back in to stop a post lambing prolapse. i have an old girl who runs with my ewe lambs who threw a massive prolapse 5 years ago she is held in at the back with a shoelace, works well so far. oh and dont give her to much sugar beet at one go it swells a lot in the stomach and could force things so to speek.
if you dont think you can watch her like every 2/3 hours day and night then consider just having the vet deliver the lambs as they stand in a controled way, they might be small but it might be for the best. just a thought.
lastly my vet calls prolapses a condition of excellent sheep condition, seems a shame that getting your sheep to lambing in top condition can result in this disrtessing condition but thats just the way things are. so chin up deep breath and know that with the best will she might die. and if she lives dont breed from her again, cull or retire her, shewill keep throwingproplases otherwise.
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I had 2 with prolapses last year. One was stitched beforehand and one was wearing a harness.
I agree about putting them on the flat. We brought ours into the stable/yard, a flat area and so that we could keep an eye on them and they could be in the dry if they wanted. We took it in turns to stay up at night and checked on them every 30 mins. The one with the stitch was more urgent because they can't lamb through the stitch like they can the harness. As soon as we saw the water bag we cut the stitch and in the case of the harness we were there to take it off beforehand. Both lambed successfully.
The one with the stitch continued to prolapse afterwards and we eventually had her culled. The other one is still with us although I won't put her into lamb again.
I hope it all turns out fine for you :fc:
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Thanks for those last two replies, really helpful information. We brought her in yesterday, partly because the grazing is the other side of the river and rope-swinging across at 1am/7am to check on her was getting a bit much. She's in an open barn with loads of hay and 2 others to keep her company in the evening/night time. She's pooing completely normally now, no straining, and drinking a lot. She's moving around fine but I've moved the hay up higher to keep her stretching for it!
It's really interesting what you say about beet. She has had smaller prolapses in late pregnancy, but always lambs with no problem, so we were waiting for the first sign of prolapse, and then going to put the harness on. This year a local farmer had some beet left over in the field and said we could help ourselves. We thought it would be good nutrition for the pregnant ewes. The day after we first gave them the beet she had the first prolapse of her pregnancy, and it was the worst one ever.
Bionic, I really admire your commitment. 30 minute checks and up all night. In the day she’s checked every hour. Then at 1am and 7am. I’ll add in a 5am check from now, as they often seem to lamb in the early morning.
Graemscifi, why does the vet say it’s a sign of good condition? I thought it was a trait that should be culled out of the flock and we were being too soft.
Thanks again for your help.
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Good condition is code for over fat/badly managed in this sort of case I imagine. Aim to get sheep to lambing in optimal rather than top condition
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Just a comment. Whenever I've had one prolapsing I've always left the harness on till after lambing. In each case (about 4 or 5 in total) they've lambed unaided and the harness seems to move to one side to allow the lambs out.
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that's a relieving thought landroverroy, how tight have you had the straps?
hers are on fairly tight.
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that's a relieving thought landroverroy, how tight have you had the straps?
hers are on fairly tight.
One other thing to keep am eye on, if the harness is fairly tight then it might be rubbing. Ours had caused sores which were weeping. I was gutted when I noticed as I thought we were doing everything we could to make her comfortable.
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this a reply to "ME", who do you think you are? you are an arrogant fool. What do you know about my situation and what the vet said to me? for you information i am farming in Caithness with hill sheep, when the vet says its a part of good condition he means the sheep are not skinny as rails at this time of the year. i am disapointed by the stupidity of what you have said. idiot.
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I wasn't replying to you particularly actually Graemscifi as your post was further back in the conversation. I replied as a Vet to the OP who had asked: "(Graemscifi) why does the Vet say it’s a sign of good condition? I thought it was a trait that should be culled out of the flock and we were being too soft."
If over fatness is leading to prolapsing then management wasn't right. From a Vets perspective, when faced with farmers who are incapable of hearing it straight I have put things similarly and let them read between the lines. I doubt you know what was going through the vets mind when they said that to you.
I did not want those with less experience and knowledge than yourself to think that "top condition" possible was what they should be aiming for at lambing and make the point that over feeding (something many smallholders are guilty of) was bad management. Hence:
"Good condition is code for over fat/badly managed in this sort of case I imagine. Aim to get sheep to lambing in optimal rather than top condition"
The statement was made in the course of discussion. You can choose to take it as a personal attack if you like or how it's meant.
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lastly my vet calls prolapses a condition of excellent sheep condition, seems a shame that getting your sheep to lambing in top condition can result in this disrtessing condition but thats just the way things are
What utter tosh ::) :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
So everyone who doesn't have prolapses have sheep that aren't in top condition? And when since should sheep be in such a high condition that prolapses are inevitable at lambing time?
And it's certainly not "just the way things are" you need to visit a few more flocks, the flock should be manged to prevent this as well as being culled out, hill farmer or no hill farmer, if you are having prolapses you are doing something wrong and it needs correcting
at least it keeps your vet topped up I suppose
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this a reply to "ME", who do you think you are? you are an arrogant fool. What do you know about my situation and what the vet said to me? for you information i am farming in Caithness with hill sheep, when the vet says its a part of good condition he means the sheep are not skinny as rails at this time of the year. i am disapointed by the stupidity of what you have said. idiot.
Please tone it down Graemscifi. Even if the comment was aimed at you directly, which apparently it wasn't, the words 'fool', 'stupidity' and 'idiot' have no place here unless we're referring to ourselves.
It is possible to disagree or challenge someone without resorting to personal insults. :thumbsup:
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I don't believe condition always dictates prolapse. I had a mule who has minor prolapse and she is always lean. It seems worse the more lambs she is carrying and the vet also said to limit the bulk feed, probably for same reason not to feed beet, so there is less pressure on the uterus.
fingers crossed the lambs arrive safe and well. I delivered once through prolapse and it is very scary but ewe managed fine while I stood and watched in horror. It was only vagnal so nothing out of place after. Your sounds more serious s I'd have vet on speed dial! :fc:
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Its a multi-factorial problem with several known risk factors (and some that are probably still not known). Genetic factors, diet, condition, slope of land, litter size etc all contribute.
On a practical level there are things you can or are willing to change and things you cannot/are not. We had five sheep prolapse last year, all were Pedigree Lleyn, four were from one breeder bought together that autumn (in a group of five, the fifth did not prolapse). One was also bought in but had been with me a while.
The ewes were carrying a little more condition than my flock average due to feeding for sale, were fed round bale silage (not ideal), all were carrying two-three.
So, this year all five have been culled as has the non-prolapsing relative of the four who did (so six culled). No lambs out of them were kept. The ewes are in generally good condition due to the soft year though none are over fat vs last year, they are/will be fed less than normal concentrate in late gestation. Once again we are feeding round bale silage and cannot change this... I suspect despite my imperfect management we will see much less vaginal prolapse this year. Time will tell!
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There is a possibility that the four from the one breeder had prolapsed before (they were two year olds) and he had sold them on through a Pedigree auction - which is naughty. After they have prolapsed for the first time the tissues are weak and even if they are kept skinny are likely to prolapse again.
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that's a relieving thought landroverroy, how tight have you had the straps?
hers are on fairly tight.
Difficult to say, as in "how long is a piece of string?" :thinking:
However, I would say just tight enough to keep the prolapse in, - so really as loose as effectively possible. Certainly not tight enough to cause rubbing or so the ewe looked uncomfortable.
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"how long is a piece of string?" :thinking:
I have the answer; I was Tb testing on a Welsh speaking farm (English a poor second language) two brothers had roped in their South African brother in law for help and instructed him to "go and get some string" he dutifully disappeared and came back with approx. 12" of string. They went crazy! "Some string" means at least 18" apparently! So thats how long it is...
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"how long is a piece of string?" :thinking:
I have the answer; I was Tb testing on a Welsh speaking farm (English a poor second language) two brothers had roped in their South African brother in law for help and instructed him to "go and get some string" he dutifully disappeared and came back with approx. 12" of string. They went crazy! "Some string" means at least 18" apparently! So thats how long it is...
Nice one :thumbsup: :roflanim:
But not quite the answer I expected! I thought you were going to give a precise answer as to how tight to do up a prolapse harness, as described in broken English by a Welsh farmer. ;D
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I put them on as tight as I can get without using a lot of force , and once fastened I then recheck that the straps are right up in the groin and no udder is trapped ( never had any chaffing )
Just a comment. Whenever I've had one prolapsing I've always left the harness on till after lambing. In each case (about 4 or 5 in total) they've lambed unaided and the harness seems to move to one side to allow the lambs out.
While 9times this works on the 10th the lamb is trapped in the small middle hole
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Hi all. Just to say that, 8 days on from the prolapse, she's still strapped in the harness, on good form. No chaffing, no obvious discomfort. She'll probably lamb as soon as we turn our backs. No temperature, no evidence of infection; in fact she's looking a bit smug in the warm barn whilst the sleet whistles around the others. We'll update when something changes. Thanks again for all the input, it really helps.