The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on April 15, 2011, 02:05:51 am
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Well you are all such an interesting, informed and articulate lot I thought I would throw in something maybe ( ;)) a little bit contentious.
First let me say that I think it is tragic how many diverse breeds and crossbreeds we have lost in the last fifty years so am very pleased that there are people (like many of you on here) who will help to keep the rare breeds and breeding practices going.
BUT ... to me, there is something not quite right about seeing (for instance) Belted Galloways munching away on ground which is frankly good enough for arable in sunny Wiltshire. To me, the whole point of the Galloway is that it is supremely hardy and thrifty and it should be wandering miles in moorland seeking tussocks of this and hummocks of that to munch.
Of course it is better to have someone keeping a breed alive, even if in an environment not similar to that in which the breed arose, than to let the breed die out.
But, if a significant amount of breeding occurs in such dissimilar environments, then surely the very characteristics which made the breed a success in its home environment in the first place would begin to die away - and we would be left with something that looked like its ancestor but could not perform in its original environment.
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Also why do people keep natives enclosed and expect them to survive on nothing, no shelter etc. and say they will be ok because they are 'native'. Natives wander miles to find shelter or food in the wild not in a paddock braving everything thrown at them looking sad. I agree environment plays a great part in breed characteristics but keeping the breeds alive and people interested in them is also just as important. Hopefully most folk look at their land and see what breed it would be best for, especially if profit is involved.
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I think it's a compromise. The Shetland Cattle Breeders Association is based on the mainland for mainland breeders but it works closely with the Herd Book Society, which is on Shetland. Last year, there were more Shetland calves registered from the mainland than from the islands - both organisations are working hard to maintain a healthy and vibrant island population for the reasons you cite.
However, if it wasn't for mainland breeders, the breed would be in dire trouble. Generally, mainland breeders keep them pure because their motiveation is pedigree breeding but because the cows can easily birth and rear X calves from continental breeds, that's what's happened a lot on the islands, for profit. I'm not knocking profit as a motive, by the way.
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our farm/woods are abit wild so we had to choose native, they thrive and have freedom, and seem really happy. but any fancy breeds needing high quality grazing just wouldnt cope here. we need animals that can think for themselves, which not all can. :wave:
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I kind of agree with you Sally.
I've had the same seed of a thought cropping up from time to time, but daren't let myself think it. It is important to preserve these breeds but at what cost? I live in the Highlands & have Highland cattle & they are allowed to roam the hills - just like they should, they are one of few breeds that can eat heather. To me Highland Cattle in a green field look weird ;D
But it's interesting how the North/South divide can be manipulated to help improve breeds. I also keep Shetland sheep, which tend to get bigger ( if a little softer) in the south, northern breeders then bring these sheep into their flocks to help maintain a good size.
So there's no easy answer, but like you I have a purist tendency ;)
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apparently they excavated cow skeletons on shetland that were hundreds of years old and found that their bone growth was so stunted through starvation in the winter that that was the reason they were smaller, and over the generations only the smallest survived to eat again in the spring. was just as tough for the shetlanders who needed the cow to survive to feed their kids. so it goes to say better food and warmer weather makes for better growth.
:wave: :cow:
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This thread reminds me of an old song (can't remember who it was by) I think the words (which were spoken with the Hovis tune in the background) went something like "..and we had lots of things that we don't have now... polio, rickets,diptheria and are little 'eads were all painted purple 'cause we all 'ad ringworm"
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This thread reminds me of an old song (can't remember who it was by) I think the words (which were spoken with the Hovis tune in the background) went something like "..and we had lots of things that we don't have now... polio, rickets,diptheria and are little 'eads were all painted purple 'cause we all 'ad ringworm"
Hahhahahahhahhahha! ;D ;D Nice one, Jac Quip!
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I have been guilty myself of coveting large-framed Swaledales to impart some size into the hill flock I had at the time. I did wonder whether the size was nature (genetic) or nurture - and instead bought some very tough little lasses from an even higher and colder hill than mine. (Probably not wetter nor windier, mind.) Sadly I cannot report how their offspring shaped up as it it not now my flock and they haven't kept track of how each lamb was bred.
Another example would be the two types of Fell Pony, and other natives such as the Exmoor too. One type is still semi-feral, bred and reared on the uplands running free often across thousands of acres and the other is now a more domesticated, 'produced' animal that is reputedly losing its ability to forage and make use of moor grasses, mosses, thistles, etc and also its weather-proof coat.
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For example a modern Shetland pony is a relatively modern development, it is a pit pony not the old croft/ moor pony and as I found out PDO lamb can include Sussex crosses. So good on those breeding pure and to the one Shetland stud owner I know of trying to breed the pony big again like its anestors and shame on those farmers selling sussex x shetland as Shetland PDO lamb!
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in general a larger shetland would make them more comercial but not a lot better than they are now. think of all those dartmoor ponies being fed to the big cats. yes the size was set so that they could fit in the mines but any rushed breeding for sizes needs to be gradual or it could cause problems.
The shetland cows were so weak at the end of the winter that they would sometimes have to be carried out to the field. This was not out of cruelty just extreme poverty. if there hay and other fodder ran out early they starved. the ponies were left on the hill and had to make do for themselves. I think people forget how hard it was to live up here even 50-60 years ago.
how can someone be fooled by a cross shetland/suffolk.
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The shetland cows were so weak at the end of the winter that they would sometimes have to be carried out to the field. This was not out of cruelty just extreme poverty. if there hay and other fodder ran out early they starved. the ponies were left on the hill and had to make do for themselves. I think people forget how hard it was to live up here even 50-60 years ago.
i know, the old shetland way of life fascinates me,(since readng their centenery book ;) ;)) i wasnt implying cruelty, just the reason why they are smaller. given year round feed, they would surely creep up in size.
apparently, they were on deep litter all winter, and by spring, their heads wud be in the rafters of the barn..maybe another reason they are short...lol ;D ;D ;D
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excuse my ignorance... what is PDO?
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PDO means protected designation of origin. It means Shetland lamb can only come from Shetland , as in Parma Ham and Champagne. But for some reason Suffolks crossed with Shetlands counts as Shetland lamb ??? Makes a mockery of it all.
I love the old Shetland way of life as well, we know a lady who is ploughing with a pony to grow carbon neutral, organic veg!( But she will have to do her deliveries in a van ::)) There is a picture of hay making with hooks of our croft in the Centenery Cattle Book. We do our best but if you ask a Shetlander they hated it and could not wait to abandon the old crofts and build new concrete bunkers or cuckoo clock wooden houses, the old white crofts are a treat to see.
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and yet the most recent energy efficent building intendend looks like an old single story croft house. and the buildings from the war onwards are starting to fail. whilst the ruined croft house stands roofless for many decades.
that deep litter system must have been really pongy. as it was banded in the 1880s to have the croft house and byre linked with a door. funny how we have one. our old byre would not cope with a big cow and a couple of feet of shall we say compost.
all i can say is those crofters were strong some of the stones used in building the byre are massive.
but the point of the shetland cow is that its small hardy and will live off thin air. breeding it up would spoil those attibutes and weaken the breed. the same as the sheep. it would be dead easy to breed from crosses but then you would weaken the hardiness of the sheep.
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This thread reminds me of an old song (can't remember who it was by) I think the words (which were spoken with the Hovis tune in the background) went something like ...
THE HOVIS ADVERT (Parody) by Tony Capstick
mudcat has the lyrics and youtube the audio:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=63403 (http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=63403)
Hovis Advert - Tony Capstick - Capstick Comes Home 1981 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmSA0W3mkn4#)
Good stuff!
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For a more serious contribution to the thread, I agree wholeheartedly that the rare breeds ought to be conserved in an appropriate environment - where possible. However, for those of us not lucky enough to be somewhere exotic like Shetland how do you find out what would be an appropriate rare breed for your area? I'd love to see a map of britain with the rare breeds shown by location. Might be a real help for smaller rare breeds to raise the profile in their local areas, I'd certainly get an appropriate local breed if I knew of any. As far as I can tell the fens don't have specific tradional breeds - or perhaps I've not looked hard enough?
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A breed like the Shetland sheep also has a lot of advantages that are of benefit to any smallholder such as easy lambing, easier to handle, do not need clippers to shear as you can roo them etc etc . So I do agree about environment but there are other factors as well on thinking more about it, it is all about common sense in the end!
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Thanks Ben for the video clip :D
The question of keeping rare breeds in their own regions and what happens when you don't is interesting and relevant. The breed we keep the most of is the Hebridean, whose name implies that they originated in the Hebrides. In fact it is not as straigtforward as that - along with Shetlands, Manx Loaghtan, North Ronaldsays and the other British primitives, this type was once common throughout Britain (before being divided up into actual breeds), but was pushed to the rocky outer regions of the British Isles with the introduction of more commercial breeds. But of course although it was the type which existed everywhere, the individual sheep found in any area came from ancestors which had also been local to that area or nearby so were adapted to that area, so in that way you could say after all that Hebrideans did come from the Hebrides... ::) However, by the late 1800s there were none left on the islands and most Hebs were later found in England, especially in Yorkshire where they had been kept as Park breeds then became popular with smallholders in the mid 20th century. So for over 100 years many Hebs have lived in England, whilst a few small flocks survived in Scotland. So where do they really come from? Without the breed becoming popular in England, they would certainly never have survived as a crofting sheep, so would have died out. Hebs currently kept in the Hebrides are there largely due to the efforts of the late Donald Ferguson, and came from stock re-introduced from England, but are not popular as money-making sheep.
Many Hebs now living in the soft parts of England have increased in size by a few kgs in the past 30-40 years. These are the specimens which appear in the big shows and as a consequence 'become' the ideal for the breed, whereas what is needed in the Highlands and islands is a different type - certainly smaller, kept outdoors, lambing outdoors, with minimal extra feeding except hay in winter, and a large tract of grazing land. We have just experience a typical problem when bringing one of these pampered ewes up to the south of Scotland, where she suddenly found herself in a new environment with insufficient time to adapt before we put her into lamb. She came from a breeder just north of London where the flock were all sponged to lamb simultaneously, indoors, fed with large quantities of grain feeds and bred for the show ring. Up here her twin lambs were tiny and she lost one. We knew this can happen when you bring soft sheep north, but she appeared to be coping admirably - obviously we were not observant enough. There is much exchange of stock between the north and the south, so I wonder how such animals do when they find themselves in North Uist. The great thing with Hebs is that they seem to be very adaptable and can change to accommodate varying conditions - perhaps it is this adaptability which is so important to preserve? By keeping Hebs in a wide variety of places perhaps we are taking the right route to preserving as many of their varied traits as possible.
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we had to get our boreray breeding stock from wales and england...and take them back to scotland...!!!