The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: TheSmilingSheep on May 29, 2015, 08:57:50 pm
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You know the phrase: "when it's not broke......"
Well, life is good, a little (20+) flock of rare breed sheep, half a dozen chickens who free range the garden all day, three wonderful black cats, the occasional pig....
And now the opportunity of bringing to the party a border collie cross huntaway puppy...
IF we proceeded, we'd definitely commit to proper training (for us and the dog!), and we'd imagine wanting the dog to do a little sheep work (but this is a very modest small-holding), and we would still want the chickens to free range, and we would definitely want our cats (who are all under 3, but who've not lived with dogs before) to continue with their happy, household domination!
Are we mad? Should we count are blessings and leave the menagerie as it is? Or can the arrival of a new species lead to a happy ending for everyone?
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I understand why you would post this in three places, but it's really best to run the conversation in only one.
Can I suggest linking this and the Poultry one to the one in Dogs (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=60597.0), and then locking this and the Poultry one?
That way, folks on all three boards get to see the question and all are led to just one place to read / participate in the discussion.
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apologies for confusion of three postings - hoped to get different perspectives....
i've now locked the dog and chicken posts, but am grateful to all responses....
I think the point that 'if I have to ask the answer's probably no' is very well made. Cats now smiling!
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what type of sheep do you have? some rare breeds wont herd for a dog.
in our experience, puppies are easier to mould than older dogs.
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Yes - most definitely - get one!
If, as you say, you are getting yourselves and the dog properly trained, then you will wonder how you managed without it. It is so much easier when you want to handle a particular sheep that has a problem, to use a dog to corner it. Even the tamest sheep suddenly becomes uncatchable at times without a dog, once it senses that you are intent on catching it.
The cats will cope and sort something out amongst themselves. Most likely, because they've got there first they will soon have the dog under control.
As for the hens - they also will manage. You have to make it clear from the start that they are NOT to be chased and shout a stern NO, or drench with a water pistol, if the pup so much as looks like it's going to chase them. I would, however, not tempt fate by ever leaving the dog out alone with the hens unless there is someone around and in earshot.
Our collie is very good with the hens. If we're around he doesn't chase them, and he's very good at herding them into the henrun at night if I want them in earlier because I'm going out for the evening. But I would not leave him unattended with them for a long time as boredom sets in and he has been known to herd one into a corner, and once he'd caught it there he decided he might as well pluck it. Fortunately I managed to rescue the totally traumatised, half bald, and soggy bird before he (inadvertantly) killed it.
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I agree with the above. Andy Nickless told me that Huntaways take twice as long to train as a BC and although they were very good he didn't train them for that reason. We left our straight-out-of-a-barn-on-a-Welsh-mountain BC pup with Alison Smith for a month and she transformed him and then trained us to train him from then on. When we went back for an assessment a couple of months later she thought he showed promise for trialling!
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I've given this some more thought, and my advice differs depending on whether you have had dogs before, of what type, and what you did with them.
If you aren't used to having your own dog, then personally I'd steer clear of the one you've been offered and, if you like the idea of a pup in the family, look out for perhaps a collie x lab or something similar (accidents occur, if you put the word out, some farm somewhere will have a collie bitch in pup to a lab sooner or later; or someone who has labs and lives near a farm will have a lab bitch in pup to the local farm collie.) If there's a bit of collie in the mix, it will probably have a bit of sheep sense (though not guaranteed, not even all pure collies are interested in, or skilled with, sheep), and hopefully not be so obsessed with sheep that it can't behave unless it's working every day.
You'd still need to get training for you and for it, of course.
If you have had dogs before, and are used to training them and working with them even if it's only obedience, flyball, agility or what not, then actually I would probably still steer clear of the pup you've been offered.
Working with working collies working sheep is not at all like any other handler-dog relationship I had experienced. I think I would be inclined to see if there's a local farm collie not quite up to the job on the farm, but would make a good smallholder's dog, and help out a bit but not be obsessive. You'll learn a lot from working with an experienced collie, and it'll already have learned about hens and so on. Once you've had such a dog, you'd be better placed to train your own pup next time. You would of course take great care in adopting such a dog - there could be a number of farmers with less-than-useful dogs happy to palm them off on an unsuspecting smallholder! But there will also be genuine opportunities - you would just need to be quite robust in rejecting any dogs which didn't seem suitable. Most farmers would ask that you return the dog to them if it doesn't work out - if they don't do this, take care!, and ask for a one month trial initially.
On the type of the pup you've been offered, the Huntaway is bred to move large numbers (up to thousands) of sheep by barking at them, and to work with them in close quarters (in the pens) by running along their backs. It's an interesting component in your dog if you have hundreds or even a thousand of sheep on a fell, but I really think it's probably not the ideal makeup for a dog to work a small flock of primitive type sheep.
You don't say what rare breed your sheep are; if it's a dopey great longwool type, the Huntaway would probably be quite good, as the sheep don't always see too well! However, if they are a primitive type, then IME they need handling quite sensitively by the sheepdog or they'll just scatter, scale fences and so on. (My own collie dogs have learned to hang well back from my primitives, and to be very calm, quiet and patient.)
Sorry for the essay!
I'm not sure whereabouts in Devon you are, but if you can get to David Kennard's displays at Borough Farm, you could have a chat with him. Not only might he offer you and any dog you do get some training, but he may know of a suitable dog, either now or in the future. He might also be able to help you assess any dog you are offered. (I say 'might' because sometimes he's busy with filming or other projects, but if not then he's usually happy to help. And if he is too busy himself, he'd be able to suggest someone else you could approach.)
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We'd never had a dog before we got our Border Collie puppy. At the time we only had horses and hens, no sheep. We've never had any problems with him chasing hens. Finally got our sheep last year when he turned 3. We'd have been better starting him off with sheep straight away but he was already used to rounding up the horses and hens and has picked up working with the sheep really well.
We've got a flock of 29 right now, mainly Shetlands, with a few Mules and it's sooo much easier with a dog - there's been a few times when we've needed to round them up and he's not been at the yard with us which has involved a lot of swearing and running aimlessly after them.
The big thing is to make sure that it's trained properly.
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I cant agree re hens.
Our local farmer friend comes to our house most days with his very quiet and obedient working border collie. But despite all efforts to date (over the last 6 months) she relentlessly chases our hens and almost killed one a couple of weeks ago. They make her see the red mist. We now have to put the hens away when she comes or keep the dog by our sides.
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Thank you all. I'm always drawn to the enthusiasm of a 'go for it!' response, but caution is winning the day on this one....
We have Balwen sheep (a Welsh mountain breed) and Shetlands, and whilst I'd often give anything to find a way of speedy efficient non-sweary rounding up, I'm not sure that we are ready for four legged assistance just yet. We'll keep a note of all suggestions, especially suggestions for professional guidance.
We really are very grateful for the observations...
And apologies again for multiply posting - now I see that there are already 'rules' about this, which I'd hopelessly been completely unaware of.... As I've said, I've locked down the other two, but can't manage a 'link' - frankly, even putting in a smiley face is a challenge for me :-[
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as a sheepdog trainer i have had my fair share of huntaways and border collies, and even the mix of the two....i think you should go for it , you never learn more than training your own pup...and once you have your own dog you would never go back to bringing sheep in without one, its a great sense of achievement training. Border collie X huntaways can make great even amazing smallholding dogs, if trained right.
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Brendon, I like a man who knows his limitations. Good call , IMHO.
XX
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I cant agree re hens.
Our local farmer friend comes to our house most days with his very quiet and obedient working border collie. But despite all efforts to date (over the last 6 months) she relentlessly chases our hens and almost killed one a couple of weeks ago. They make her see the red mist. We now have to put the hens away when she comes or keep the dog by our sides.
Kimbo - I rather think the problem there is the dog's owner! He obviously has not got his dog under control, and it's difficult for you to shout at, squirt with water or otherwise discipline someone else's dog. To allow a dog to carry on doing something "despite all efforts" is actually teaching the dog that it can do exactly as it likes! Surely, if it were your dog, you would not allow it chase your hens as and when it wanted, while you pointlessly shouted at it? And if someone else brought their dog to my place and it uncontrollably chased my animals, I would insist that next time it either stayed in the vehicle or was put on a lead.
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
Kimbo, I'm not called Brendon - just the name of our cottage. I'm a girl.....
But, still, I do know my limitations...
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
Kimbo, I'm not called Brendon - just the name of our cottage. I'm a girl.....
So is the wedding off then?
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Re hens - mine are that tame that they will sit down and let my dog sniff them. He's nuzzles them all over and then goes on his way. He has such a mothering instinct that he sneaks into the pen when I'm with a farrowing sow and even starts licking the piglets dry.
My local farmers two working dogs are always pottering around the farm with the hens, geese, and quail that he has without any bother too.
Surely if a dog is brought up and taught that it doesn't chase them from the start then it won't get into that habit from day one and become set in it's ways thinking that it's perfectly acceptable. Personally, I'd expect any working farm dog I have to be completely safe around all animals.
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I cant agree re hens.
Our local farmer friend comes to our house most days with his very quiet and obedient working border collie. But despite all efforts to date (over the last 6 months) she relentlessly chases our hens and almost killed one a couple of weeks ago. They make her see the red mist. We now have to put the hens away when she comes or keep the dog by our sides.
Kimbo - I rather think the problem there is the dog's owner! He obviously has not got his dog under control, and it's difficult for you to shout at, squirt with water or otherwise discipline someone else's dog. To allow a dog to carry on doing something "despite all efforts" is actually teaching the dog that it can do exactly as it likes! Surely, if it were your dog, you would not allow it chase your hens as and when it wanted, while you pointlessly shouted at it? And if someone else brought their dog to my place and it uncontrollably chased my animals, I would insist that next time it either stayed in the vehicle or was put on a lead.
Thank you for your advice.
I rather thought that my use of the phrase " despite all efforts" indicated that all of us had used various and multiple efforts to teach this otherwise totally obedient collie not to chase the hens but clearly I was mistaken as you believed that we were standing and pointlessly shouting at her. Isnt language a curious thing?
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
Kimbo, I'm not called Brendon - just the name of our cottage. I'm a girl.....
So is the wedding off then?
::) :roflanim: Yes Im afraid it is!! Sorry Brendon, no offence but I was looking for a chap! ( for the avoidance of doubt: this is a "JOKE". Im not looking for a chap. Im happily married already...to a man, btw! ;))
(and for the avoidance of yet more doubt: when I last checked I was a woman too!)
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a lot is down to how you bring them up. our terrier is fine with our hens aslong as the atmosphere is calm. we are tough on him if he slips up, he picks up on excitement so he doesn't visit the hens with the kids but is fine with me. he needs watching with young goat kids but is feared of the adults. we haven't got sheep at the moment. hes still a work in progress at 2.
wouldn't be without my dogs ever.
id choose an easy breed if its your first dog. many dogs will help with a few sheep if you have control of them. even my pigs used to help herd the sheep :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: yes really.
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even my pigs used to help herd the sheep :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: yes really.
All six of our piglets used to help the collie dogs bring the sheep through the paddock :D
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;) who knew " Babe The Sheep-Pig" was true story!! ;D :thumbsup:
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I understand where you are coming from Kimbo. I have 3 dogs. 2 of them wouldn't dream of going near chickens and really pay no interest in them now. The 3rd dog (Kai) just gets the red mist and I wouldn't trust him anywhere near a bird. They have all have been treated the same and have tried everything. Kai is a very well behaved lad otherwise, very well trained. I have pictures of him asleep with the lambs (and no I don't leave him unattended with them) it's just chickens that absolutely drive him crazy. Hence we can't keep chickens or let him near any. It's a Kai thing rather than a general dog thing.
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Thank you for your advice.
I rather thought that my use of the phrase " despite all efforts" indicated that all of us had used various and multiple efforts to teach this otherwise totally obedient collie not to chase the hens but clearly I was mistaken as you believed that we were standing and pointlessly shouting at her. Isnt language a curious thing?
You're welcome Kimbo. :sunshine:
Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying, :bouquet: but I took it to mean that you were advising Brendon not to get the pup because her hens wouldn't be safe because your farmer friend couldn't control his dog when he visited you, and it nearly killed one of your hens. I took it to mean that this normally obedient dog was therefore out of control when near your hens, in which case what else can you do but shout at it if it's got to the stage that you cannot physically stop it? :thinking:
(Possibly your use of language is not as clear as you believe. :idea: )
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Surely if a dog is brought up and taught that it doesn't chase them from the start then it won't get into that habit from day one and become set in it's ways thinking that it's perfectly acceptable. Personally, I'd expect any working farm dog I have to be completely safe around all animals.
Exactly. :farmer: