The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Dangermouse on February 16, 2010, 07:20:30 pm
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The people Im buying my land off have just slapped a last minute covenant on it.....
If I develop or build on the land I have to give them 50% of the value if I sell it.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Can't you call their bluff and threaten to walk...?
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no problem ...build a house on it ....then sell it to your other half , or your mum or dad whoever ? for £100 more than you bought it for .... then a month later buy it back after giving the people you buy it off their £50 .....problem solved..... ::) ;D
cheers
Russ
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no problem ...build a house on it ....then sell it to your other half , or your mum or dad whoever ? for £100 more than you bought it for .... then a month later buy it back after giving the people you buy it off their £50 .....problem solved..... ::) ;D
cheers
Russ
Only you would come up with that Russ, great idea though!
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no problem ...build a house on it ....then sell it to your other half , or your mum or dad whoever ? for £100 more than you bought it for .... then a month later buy it back after giving the people you buy it off their £50 .....problem solved..... ::) ;D
cheers
Russ
Funny you should say that as its the fist thing came into my head...... :D
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Seems to be the done thing nowadays, land sellers retaining an interest if its sold on or developed for profit.
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To be honest building a house on the land diddnt even enter my head, its 2.5 acres of class 2 agricultural land.
But I do want to put up a barn and some hardstanding etc.......
Ill have to get the solicitor to have a closer look at this covenant thingy before I commit to buying now....grrrr
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THAT was my first thought! It may not be a valid covenant! There are legal rules for the terms laid down in covenants. Get him to check also that it doesn't cover building a barn and only a house.
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THAT was my first thought! It may not be a valid covenant! There are legal rules for the terms laid down in covenants. Get him to check also that it doesn't cover building a barn and only a house.
will do ;D
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Also check how the 50% is calculated? Is it before or after expenses - legal fees, selling fees, cost of building etc etc
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If they won't abandon it, perhaps they'd accept commuting it to only apply for 5 years after the sale etc? It does sound like a restriction you could do without to be honest!
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Its probably a clause rather than a covenant, which is within the sellers rights to include as part of the sale! Although how far along has this sale gone before he added this clause? Speak to your solicitor, it maybe if you sell or develop, say within the next 10 years or so? It maybe agricultural land but so much land has been turned over to development in recent years, hence why landowners are slapping these clauses on! Theres a few acres near us that went to auction a few times, the seller had a clause that if it was developed on in the next 30 years he retains a percentage of the profits! needless to say it didnt sell, that is until the agent sent over 100 brochures to pikies that were interested, an adjoining neighbour bought it!!
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What are pikies?
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In my neck of the woods they are gypsies or generally people that mainstream society deems unacceptable.
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Pikies are travellers or gypsies.
We had a covenant slapped on us too, by our own family. So if we develop any part of the farm, they will reap the benefits .....they already are reaping them with the payout. It is quite usual nowadays for people to cover their backs, so to speak.
Really, if you intend to only use the land for agricultrual purposes, and keep it that way, then it will not be a problem.
I suppose if you put the boot on the other foot, and consider if you were the seller, did not put a clause on, and then a year down the line, found the buyer had made a packet on putting houses on it. Their solicitor will have said they should safeguard themselves against this happening.
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If the clause / covenant is only to prtect the seller from you making a commercial profit from land that they want to sell you at agricultural values, then putting up an agricultural shed shouldn't be a problem because it is not hugely increasing the value of the plot.
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Pikies are travellers or gypsies.
We had a covenant slapped on us too, by our own family. So if we develop any part of the farm, they will reap the benefits .....they already are reaping them with the payout. It is quite usual nowadays for people to cover their backs, so to speak.
Really, if you intend to only use the land for agricultrual purposes, and keep it that way, then it will not be a problem.
I suppose if you put the boot on the other foot, and consider if you were the seller, did not put a clause on, and then a year down the line, found the buyer had made a packet on putting houses on it. Their solicitor will have said they should safeguard themselves against this happening.
Pikie's are the same down this way ;D
If the vender is concerned about me making a profit on the by developing it, why dont they apply for planning (which will only cost £500) then sell the land with approved planning permission
Which would increase the value
Im a little angry because they put this clause in AFTER I made my offer and they accepted
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no problem ...build a house on it ....then sell it to your other half , or your mum or dad whoever ? for £100 more than you bought it for .... then a month later buy it back after giving the people you buy it off their £50 .....problem solved..... ::) ;D
cheers
Russ
why an extravagent £100 more?
£0.10 more i would have thought!
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I can understand you being angry, sounds like they didn't take legal advice before accepting you offer! find out exactly what the clause is and speak to the solicitor, if you're paying top dollar for agricultural land then effectively they're making good moneyanyway and you can argue against the clause, if they are selling it at agricultural prices then I suppose its not unreasonable to safegueard their possible investment. Just a thought!
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I can understand you being angry, sounds like they didn't take legal advice before accepting you offer! find out exactly what the clause is and speak to the solicitor, if you're paying top dollar for agricultural land then effectively they're making good moneyanyway and you can argue against the clause, if they are selling it at agricultural prices then I suppose its not unreasonable to safegueard their possible investment. Just a thought!
They are doing ok on this deal, land is very hard to get hold of in my neck of the woods
£14,000 per ACRE!!!!!
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Yes you never hear of £2k an acre anymore!! See what your solicitor reckons!
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Just as an aside - 'pikey/pikie' is actually classed as a racially offensive term, for those who don't realise it ;D
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I'm sure it is, but think they'd prefer that than the other names I have for them! ;D
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You would be shocked what the guys who work for call me......its unprintable :'(
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Guys who work for you, or guys you work for? Either way, you can always tell them to stop it.
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it happens a lot up here. people are given or buy a small plot for a house build it and sell it on for a big profit. is that fare.
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Just as an aside - 'pikey/pikie' is actually classed as a racially offensive term, for those who don't realise it ;D
Hmm how about, 'do as you likies' then!! ;D
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Tell them to drop the cause or you'll walk. They should have been open about this when they put the land on the market. Nobody in their right mind would buy under those conditions and you need to think about what would you do if you needed to sell it on in a few years.
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I agree to an extent. I know you have to look at it from the other side. But if you are selling a property you sort all of that out before you have anyone interested as otherwise it is tantamount to fraud and deceipt. However, if there is no other land around that suits you then you must go down the route of asking a solicitors advice, then if you don't get agreement you walk.
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I am kind of stuffed, Ive been looking for a bit of land round this way for almost 2 years now so I dont really have much of a choice to be honest :-[
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In that case you must talk to your lawyer. He's teh one to sort it out to your benefit. Don't talk to the sellers direst - NOT AT ALL! Until legal agreement has been reached then you can tyalk to them
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If the seller added this clause way into the proceedings then it sounds to me they didn't know about ir before, its probably their solicitor advising them to add it, or someone else thats been down the same route. Not all clauses are unreasonable, you need to know exactly whats involved before you part with your cash!
We sold a small piece of land to a neighbour, to enable them to have better access and parking to their property, we were fairly friendly with them and agreed an amount, then each instructed our solicitors. Ours advised us to retain the frontage of the land, so that in the event of them selling it for development we still had an 'interest', we decided not to as we were happy with the price, and thought it unfair to our neighbours who only wanted extra parking and as far as we knew were there for life!
2 years later they moved without word to us, the new people put in planning to build a 2 storey eyesore with basement on that land! which is agricultural. (we are in a small rural area of 4 bungalows) Needless to say we objected and it was refused! We're now 'watching this space' as they will no doubt get planning for change of use to extend their domestic curtilage, and then go in for planning again ::) different story I know but thought it may be relevant!
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Dangermouse I know its not funny your problem but this may make you chortle.St Peter answers the bell and at the Pearly Gates.There is 40 Pikeys fully equipped .Don't know if I can let you all in at once I'll have to ask Goes into the Gate house and rings up" Ive got 40 Pikeys want to come in What shall I do"."We cannot manage them all at once let 20 in OK" So St Peter went back to tell them then went back to the phone "What" "They've gone" "What all of them" " NO the Pearly Gates"
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;D ;D ;D
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Dangermouse I know its not funny your problem but this may make you chortle.St Peter answers the bell and at the Pearly Gates.There is 40 Pikeys fully equipped .Don't know if I can let you all in at once I'll have to ask Goes into the Gate house and rings up" Ive got 40 Pikeys want to come in What shall I do"."We cannot manage them all at once let 20 in OK" So St Peter went back to tell them then went back to the phone "What" "They've gone" "What all of them" " NO the Pearly Gates"
Nice one Wizard........ ;D
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Well its looking like this covenant is way too restrictive to me
No Pigs
No Poultry
No Buildings (at all)
and
50% of any future profit if the land is developed in any way once you sell (how you can develop the land with that many restrictions Im not sure)
So if I buy I can keep a horse on it...... ;D
Looks like Im back on the search (Ive been looking already for 2 years.)
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Thats crap news mate but better to find out before it was too late. Good luck with the search, I know you will be deflated just now but keep on looking.
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Thats crap news mate but better to find out before it was too late. Good luck with the search, I know you will be deflated just now but keep on looking.
Cheers mate, your right though better to find out now rather than later
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sorry to hear of your bad news. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you'll find your perfect place soon.
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The people Im buying my land off have just slapped a last minute covenant on it.....
If I develop or build on the land I have to give them 50% of the value if I sell it.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Ah now,
this is what is known as landowner greed! in other words, they cannot see green cheese going passed them, making you think twice before investing in what you thought was your future! underhand and well known tactic in Scotland,
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Bad luck DM :( Still better know now, like James said. Better luck next time :hshoe:
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thanks everyone,Im sure ill find someware in the end
let me know if you hear of anything ;D ;D
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Just plain greedy on the sellers part, however it is normal around here to put a non-development covenent on land sold. We have one on our land, we can build stables etc but a definite no no to housing.
a neighbour wanted to put a house on 3 acres he owns and the local parish council were up in arms against it, so he threatened that if he did not get the planning to build his own family home he would be selling the land to gyppos / pikies what ever you want to call them, parish council did a quick about turn and backed his planning application immediatly. so gyppos/ pikies do have their uses if only to use them as a threat!!!!!
:D
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Crikey good job you found out before its too late! Call their bluff, back out and tell'em you'll pay £14k an acre if they play by your rules!!
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I really dont have any intention to build a house on the land (no way I can afford it anyway)
But I do need some agricultural buildings, some for the goats and some for my mice (they probably wont be happy when they find out about the wee rodents anyway) ;D
So the no building with in 60 feet of the boundary is the worse one for me
Maybe ill try the pikey trick (or just become a pikey myself) ;D ;D
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We shall have to have a coded sign so we know its you DM can't have you shunned as a pretend Pikey can we ;D :farmer:
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We shall have to have a coded sign so we know its you DM can't have you shunned as a pretend Pikey can we ;D :farmer:
ill change my user name to undercover pikey ;D
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And thinking about it im going to be a very oddball smallholder anyway, I want to
Grow stuff (purely because I like growing things)
Keep some Angora Goats (because I think they are cool)
Keep Mice,rats, african soft furred rats (because my snakes eat them) ;D
Breed giant rabbitts
Breed my Tortoises
Breed my snakes (because I just love snakes)
So I guess I will a more eccentric smallholding anyway ;D ;D
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blimey your going to be busy! Well I guess the snakes will be well fed if you fall on hard times!!! :D
:horse:
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well they do say you need to diversify to be successful ;D
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Hey up DM you've just gorra ev some big bats Then hardly anyone will come to see you and you wont ev any complaints hopefully ;D ;D ;D :farmer:
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What sort of snakes, I love snakes.
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Tell your lawyer you're pulling out end of story! That is pure and utter manipulation! Nobody does that to me and gets away with it. Keep looking - something will turn up that is better! It is called 'FATE'. Good huinting vibes winging their way down to you! ;D
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Best wishes from Kath and I as well DM Sod em they think they have you by the short and curlys.Its like I told the manager in Morrisons Today you have very expensive cauli and I have a fiver Next week you have a very jaded cauli and cannot sell it but I can spend my fiver anywhere :farmer:
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This sounds hopeless for you - no use if you cannot keep livestock on the land is it?
I do hope you find some other suitable land, without all the problems this land seems to have.
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Well I took your advise and told them they could poke it up their bums ifthey keep the covenant on the land
and...
They have just taken the covenant off ;D
I still cant keep pigs and poultry but buildings etc are now allowed
So Im back in business :goat:
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bloody good for you!
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WELL DONE!!!!!!!!
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Thanks everyone, Im all excited again now ;D
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What happens if/when you sell the land, does the non pigs and poultry bit still stand?
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Yep, that will follow the land for the next 21 years thats when the covenant expires
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Congrats Dangermouse...a victory for the smallholder who stands up against those who seek to oppress or take advantage of us...
Farmer, :farmer:
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Congrats Dangermouse...a victory for the smallholder who stands up against those who seek to oppress or take advantage of us...
Farmer, :farmer:
Viva la revolution ;D
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Dangermouse wont that Covenant devalue the price of the land for when you want to sell it?
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I wondered about that too DM, it may put potential buyers off in the future. They may not be as bold and adventurous as you :)
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I guess it may devalue the land a little, land is so scarse in my neck of the woods Im not sure it will make a lot of difference.
Most of the land is big farms and the rest seems to be horsey type people so noty being allowed pigs and poultry may not be a big issue.
Its a pity though as i quite fancy keeping a couple of piggy's and a few chickens
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So why exactly do they say you cant keep pigs on it?
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So why exactly do they say you cant keep pigs on it?
They dont say why, I guess because they are a bit stinky?
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nah mine don't stink, not if you're vigilant about keeping the bed and pen/enclosure clean. They have a piggy smell granted but they don't stink... or have I just stopped noticing :-\
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They dont say why, I guess because they are a bit stinky?
Did you mean the pigs or the vendors? ;D
Farmer, :farmer:
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They dont say why, I guess because they are a bit stinky?
Did you mean the pigs or the vendors? ;D
Farmer, :farmer:
;D ;D ;D
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As a hard headed property developer (now Ive retired from nursing) I would suggest you get this covenant removed as you never know what will happen in the future and 21 years is a bl**dy long time!
If theyve already backed, down push it more and ask for it to be removed. Full stop!
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I think it might, Jackie. A covenant stays with the land and can only be removed by the person who imposed it or by statute - as far as my legal knowledge goes anyway. If it didn't work that way, Dangermouse could buy the land, sell it to his wife, then buy it back in order to get rid of the covenant.
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You are right Annie, thats exactly how it works. ;D
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You are right Annie, thats exactly how it works. ;D
Sorry, didn't read the whole thread there nor who it was I was answering - just a bit of jet lag from getting home late last night from Englandshire ;) ;D ;D :-[
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As a hard headed property developer (now Ive retired from nursing) I would suggest you get this covenant removed as you never know what will happen in the future and 21 years is a bl**dy long time!
If theyve already backed, down push it more and ask for it to be removed. Full stop!
The pig and poultry covenant was put on buy the people who sold the land to the people Im buying from (if that makes sence?)
So its going to be very hard to get that one removed, the covenant regarding the profit from development was put on by the people Im buying off and that one has been removed.
The neighbouring property also has some class 3 agricultural land adjoining mine and they have just had the planning permission to change the land to residential (with no problems at all)
So Im thinking if I had the money I could probably build a house on the land if I really wanted to?
Pity I just cant afford to....... :(
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But if you could you'd double your money when you sold it! I did. Built for £150K sold for £310K less than 2 years later
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But if you could you'd double your money when you sold it! I did. Built for £150K sold for £310K less than 2 years later
Nice one, now thats the way to do it
Well Done
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DM.Said Mr Punch :farmer:
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Dangermouse it cost very little to get either outlined planning permision or detailed planning permision so you sell the land with that. ;)
Planning permision is valid for 5 years.
You make a profit the new owners get the expense of building.
Oh and get the plans for a four bed house they sell better with land. (Goes with the horses I supose lol)
Or you trace the previous owners and get them to remove the covenant (they are more likely to do this as you are 1 owner further on and do it soon or they could die then you are stuck!) then register the land as a smallholding and sell along with the house plans and you have a profit I would envy! ;D
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Dangermouse it cost very little to get either outlined planning permision or detailed planning permision so you sell the land with that. ;)
Planning permision is valid for 5 years.
You make a profit the new owners get the expense of building.
Oh and get the plans for a four bed house they sell better with land. (Goes with the horses I supose lol)
Or you trace the previous owners and get them to remove the covenant (they are more likely to do this as you are 1 owner further on and do it soon or they could die then you are stuck!) then register the land as a smallholding and sell along with the house plans and you have a profit I would envy! ;D
I guess thats worth looking into, its took me so long to find some though I wont want to sel it ;D
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I guess thats worth looking into, its took me so long to find some though I wont want to sel it ;D
But you never know what may change ::) I never expected to be living in Central Scotland. I'd never lived out of Aberdeenshire since I was born. Twice widowed due to accidents and here I am, nearer my kids and grandkids, and with LOADS of new friends - but a lot less land. Most of that profit I made had to be put back into buying a house down here as it's more expensive. So don't clsoe your mind to adding value to your land and moving to something else - maybe even bigger, maybe just better - who knows? ;D
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Ok dangermouse you have 5 years from the date of the planning permission being granted and to hold it for longer after that you have to dig a trench (pretend footings) so it looks like you have started to build and that will hold it until you are ready to sell.
How would you like say 5 times what you paid for the land? Would that get you something really, really good elsewhere?
Thats the sort of cash you would be looking at. ;D
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Mine was a helluva lot more than that - I only paid £1600 for my plot - our land surrounded it so wasn't any use to anyone else so we got it cheap! ;D ;D ;D
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Yes but Annie you are a 'canny scot' ;D
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Mine was a helluva lot more than that - I only paid £1600 for my plot - our land surrounded it so wasn't any use to anyone else so we got it cheap! ;D ;D ;D
You may have to be my planning and business advisor ;D
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Yes but Annie you are a 'canny scot' ;D
And a retired accountant but I try to hide that ;) ;) ;)
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Yes but Annie you are a 'canny scot' ;D
And a retired accountant but I try to hide that ;) ;) ;)
Your hired ;D ;D