The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: tommytink on March 16, 2019, 08:47:11 pm
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Hi,
Possibly going to view a small group of Torwen lambs and wondered if someone could confirm what I should be asking about re: vaccinations?
I’ve read about Heptavac (P?) which is for a mixture of diseases? This is done every year?
I’ve also read about liver fluke. Is there a vaccination system for this? I couldn’t see there was but it said fluke can occur in wet and boggy areas (I’m in Wales so that’s a given ????).
Also wormer. Should lambs have been wormed? Or is it a case of only worming when there’s an issue?
The lambs I am potentially looking at are 9 months.
Thanks as always.
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Definitely ask all of these questions BUT there is no right or wrong answer . Some people give no clostridial vaccinations at all some give lambs ovivac p or Bravoxin and many give heptavac p so yes ask wether they have been given anything but its not a problem if you wish to protect them then you can give them a course to protect them . Fluke is the same some flocks need treatment and some don't so ask have they been done ? when ? and the product name ? the same questions for wormer ? When you have looked at the hoggs and got the information then come back to the forum for next steps . More important are they sound on their feet , look like the breed should and are well grown fit and healthy with a good bloom about them
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We are amongst those who don't vaccinate, but then we rarely buy in new stock, and we review our decision each year.
Ask about worming, but we would worm with the best possible wormer before we let the sheep out of the trailer, and leave them in overnight to shed any worms, then burn the straw, whether the seller has done them earlier or not (unless they have just wormed that day). We don't want to bring worms onto our clean ground. Same with fluke, but ask your vet's advice on what to use for your area and the time of year. Vet will also advise on flukicide regime as you are on wet ground (fluke uses a water snail as a host).
Once the sheep are yours, as you will be starting with clean sheep, they should only need worming after a FEC (faecal egg count), done by your vet, if they are looking a bit peaky, stark, skinny or wet daggy
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Tommytink, it would be helpful to know if your land has had sheep on it before, and if so, when? That will help to dictate the right worming strategy.
Heptavac-P+ vaccinates against a number of soil-borne diseases (seven plus pasturella, come to think of it - I guess the clue is in the name! :idea: Possibly even more now though - isn't that what the + is for? ??? ). Ovivac etc are similar. Ideally, the sheep you buy will already be 'on the programme', which means they'll have had two doses as lambs and then an annual booster. If the lambs you're buying are 9 months old, they will probably be due for the booster soon. However, there's always a chance it will already have been done, so ask the seller. If they haven't already been vaccinated, it's probably worth doing. The issue is that it's expensive for just a few sheep, since you'll need two bottles (it doesn't keep once opened). Many smallholders share bottles to reduce both cost and wasteage.
Unlike Fleecewife, we do vaccinate every year, just as a precaution. We did buy a gimmer at auction once who we were assured had been vaccinated, but she died a few weeks after arriving. Our vet told us it was quite likely to have been from 'pulpy kidney', which is one of the diseases the vaccine is meant to protect against. Had the seller fibbed and sold un-vaccinated stock? possibly!
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Be sure to give any incoming sheep a quarantine wormer of either Zolvix or Startect- you really don’t want them bringing resistant worms with them and infecting your land. Keep them in for 48 hours after treatment before you turn them out.
We heptavac all of our ewes annually before lambing so the immunity passes onto the lambs through colostrum. The rams get their booster as well. Then we put the lambs on the system with the first jab at 8 weeks and second 4-6 weeks later. More of an insurance policy as most of the diseases heptavac will protect against will kill quickly before you have a chance to give treatment.
Your vet should be able to guide you on fluke drenching- we do ours at tupping (sept), scanning in Dec with fasinex and then give Flukiver at lambing, but our farm is historically a high risk farm. The ewes are wormed at lambing but should not need regular worming.
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Ask your vet about what to use for a quarantine wormer. Sadly there is already resistance to Zolvix, which was the quarantine wormer of choice only 3 years ago :'(
Edited for auto-incorrections ::)
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Ask your vet about what to use for a quarantine worker. Sadly there is already resistance to Zolvix, which was the quarantine worker of choice only 3 years ago :'(
It's the least likely to have resistance out of the 5 wormer groups. White, yellow and clear wormers all have reported resistance, orange (zolvix) is starting to but is still recommended as a quarantine wormer. I think there are some bigger flocks using this now regularly as they are resistant to white yellow and clear. And Startect is purple drench but I don't think it's available in the UK at the moment? Scops still recommends Zolvix as a gold standard quarantine treatment- see link below,
https://www.scops.org.uk/workspace/pdfs/quarantine-options-table.pdf (https://www.scops.org.uk/workspace/pdfs/quarantine-options-table.pdf)
https://www.scops.org.uk/internal-parasites/worms/quarantine-treatments/ (https://www.scops.org.uk/internal-parasites/worms/quarantine-treatments/)
We have always used Zolvix as a quarantine drench and Dectomax (clear injectable wormer) as a scab preventative. It should also clear out any resistant zolvix worms.
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Ask your vet about what to use for a quarantine worker. Sadly there is already resistance to Zolvix, which was the quarantine worker of choice only 3 years ago :'(
We have always used Zolvix as a quarantine drench and Dectomax (clear injectable wormer) as a scab preventative. It should also clear out any resistant zolvix worms.
Ask your vet what to do as many worms are becoming multi resistant. I know as I bought in some ewes, quarantine wormed and isolated from my sheep for 3 weeks but still brought in resistant worms. A vet at the local practice asked if they had come from Wales by any chance and they had!
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Tommytink, it would be helpful to know if your land has had sheep on it before, and if so, when? That will help to dictate the right worming strategy.
Yes, the previous owner had sheep, maybe ten or so? They removed them in Oct/Nov time.
So it would be advisable to worm and keep indoors on straw until they’ve excreted, then I can turn them out and I would burn the bedding?
I will definitely ask about the Heptavac but bear in mind not everyone does it.
Will also contact the vet tomorrow and see what they have to say. Should the wormer be available in the local farm store?
I’ve not got or used a drench gun before so will track that down too and hope I get it right! I do know a couple that have some sheep so will get them to show me what to do.
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I think that if you go to your vet for advice then you should also buy the products from them, to keep them onside. You may find they are happy to give you just the doses you need, rather than you having to buy whole bottles which will time expire. That's what our vet does and for a small number of sheep it does make sense.
We have found that a drench gun can be quite unmanageable to use, especially when you are unfamiliar with it. It also wastes doses in the tubing. We used to use one when we had a large flock but now we are down to about 20 sheep, we use a syringe (without a needle). You insert it in the side of the mouth, on top of the tongue, and give the dose not too rapidly. Syringes are cheap and drench guns are more expensive unless you get one free.
I should clarify our position on Heptavac. We used it for many years, and stopped only on our vet's advice, once we had a closed flock and no disease incidence. I suggest you start on the programme with your new sheep, especially as your ground has had sheep on recently, and see how it goes for the first few years.
Do let us know if you buy this little flock, and post piccies too please :)
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I’m always frightened of damaging them and or not getting the dose into the right orifice with a regular syringe, so I invested in a couple of reusable drenching syringes and nozzles. I’m very pleased with them.
Similar to this (http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com/mvf/store/products/arplex-luer-reuseable-syringes) one, but you need the nozzle too, which I couldn’t find on Mole Valley’s website. I found this (https://www.suppliesforfarmers.co.uk/labelvage-dosing-nozzle-p-17313.html) on another website to show you what the nozzle looks like.
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Do let us know if you buy this little flock, and post piccies too please :)
Oh I will! I always pop on this site for good advice and often get distracted and don’t return till next time I’m in a panic! I’ve not had a reply from the seller yet but I know they haven’t read my message which, because it was the weekend, is understandable!
I’m not fussy about breed but the easier to maintain and handle the better. When I realised these would be black sheep I automatically thought
I shouldn’t get them but unless you’re doing stuff with wool I guess it doesn’t make a difference... Just really eager to get on and small-hold!
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Personally MUCH more important than all that medical stuff (which is better discussed with your vet to get a rapour going) is how handled they have been ….. will they come to a bucket, can the owner catch them easily.... cos if they cant you will have real problems. All of my ewes will come right up to me and most will eat out of my hand (got rid of all the bugg%$%^ :innocent: ) . Ewe lambs are much harder to start with than ewes (been there done that and always recommend anyone who is a novice and buys from me to have an older ewe too to calm the young ones down).
Good luck with your first sheep whatever they are …..
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^ That's excellent advice, Backinwellies. If I'd known / heeded that one before we bought our first ewes, it would have saved us a whole load of headaches and heartache (https://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=48385.0)!
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So the original sheep ended up gone already, but I am hunting down some more. Still sticking to the same breed as feel focusing on one will help the search.
I am in touch with three people. All advertised on the breed society website. Two are getting back to me later on to let me know what they have available. The third has confirmed they have 15 young ewes, none have had lambs before, and they are two years old. I envisaged them being younger than that (born last year). Is there any disadvantage to having older ewes that haven’t lambert? Or is that not uncommon? I really have no idea!!
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Not that uncommon ewes on very hard hill ground often don't lamb until 3yrs old , the only thing you have ask is we why are they not in lamb , were they scanned barren ? were they to small / stunted to be tupped ?
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They say they just chose not to put them to a ram. They are all registered so imagine they must be shaped okay etc.
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To be honest registered mostly means they are pure and they know who the mother and father are , sheep are not inspected for breed type by most breed societies until an official breed auction
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The smaller native breeds are not usually put into lamb until their second autumn, so they are exactly 2 years old when they first lamb. For your first sheep, my feeling is that you would be better to get a mix of lambs, and a couple of older ewes, maybe 4 yo, in lamb. That way your first lambing is of experienced ewes and meanwhile you become familiar with your lambs, and they with you and your ground. They will have seen the older ewes lambing which always helps when their own lambs pop out, so they know what to do, not just by instinct.
So I would wait for the other two breeders to get back to you and see if they can offer you a couple of in-lamb ewes plus some unbred ewe lambs (hoggs) born last spring. We all felt the need to get going with keeping animals when we first moved to our smallholdings, but it's far better to wait for the flock you really want, and not unwittingly buy in a problem because you can't wait. A day or two here or there will soon be forgotten, but buying animals which later give you grief could be a longterm problem.
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In general, and especially with the more primitive type of sheep, I am a fan of not breeding a ewe in her first year. However ewes which are already two years old and have not lambed would make me ask questions. It might be that Torwen is a breed where they do not generally breed until three years old, I don’t know. But if a sheep is not bred until she is too well grown, it can create problems. I have done it with my own sheep (not bred them until they’d be three at lambing), but I know what I need to do in terms of managing condition, so as a novice I think you might too easily end up with ewes that have excess internal fat causing difficult lambing.
The right sheep will come along, don’t worry! Much better to pass on any that don’t seem exactly right and wait for the right ones ;)
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Totally agree with Sally …. get mix of ewe lambs (yr old and older experienced ewes) and make sure you get them from someone who bucket trains and doesn't rely on a dog.
I would have guessed 2 year old Torwens not put to ram would be quite wild. (rarely handled)
What set you off wanting Torwens?
Sheep can be a real pain (cattle and goats are much easier!) … so make sure your breed choice is exactly what you want. Small doesn't mean easier to handle. Nice to have some colour but wont sell for much at market .. do you have an outlet for direct sales of meat? The coloured sheep market at Llandovery in Sept has a huge variety of coloured sheep (great to see them all in one place). Torwens have a huge following locally here in SW but they often only sell for a pittance. (Cade lambs can cost more!)