The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: AlanC on July 08, 2010, 12:10:29 pm
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right Ive been in contact over the last few days with my local council about a small piece of waste ground at the back of my house which i would like to use to grow veg, the land is unused and is not any use for any commercial propose as it is sourounded by houses
in short Ive been told no........IF the reason had been a sensible one i would of accepted that and left it
but Ive been told by some stupid woman that i cant use it as it is not parts of my garden (i think i already know) and if i want to grow any thing i should do it in my garden. ??? ???
as you can imagine I'm not a happy bunny
so what I'm needing help with is where can i go next. ill need to go over her head, i know that but how high i was thinking of going to my local councilor but don't know if they will be any use
any ideas or thoughts on this would be great
and ill try and keep you updated if i manage to get anywhere in them mean time
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I would contact your Local Councillor. He/she should be able to put you in touch with the correct person to make the decision.
In my previous contact with Councils I've always found the first person I speak to is usually a 'no' man/woman....Once you get through to the right people they are usually more helpful.
Good luck....Do let us know how you get on. :)
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Hello Alan and all the work H F W is putting into Land share Its a shame all these folk (Council Idiots) don't pull the same way Is it council owned ? Did she consult the relevant tomb? She is fire proof she thinks.Councils are shedding labour like mad have you nominated her for a change of employment? ??? >:( :'( :farmer:
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Just go ahead and dig and plant it. What can they do? use it for long enough and it will become yours.
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A few people have tried that on a local council estate near us, and had to put in planning to "extend the curtailage of their garden" you cannot cultivate land outwith your "curtailage". They all got refused. Those that did go ahead, got an enforcement order. Personally, I could not see the problem, but I suppose the council may see it that if one did it, everyone else would follow suit, and things could get difficult.
Did you offer to rent the land from the council? I think you would need change of use, to make it into a garden area, and then probably planning to actually use as a garden. Maybe they are worried you would try and claim the land as your own, maybe build on it or something?
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Is this the Parish council you have been talking to? if so go to the district council, and if all else fails write to your local MP, it just seems a terrible waste of land
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hi guys and thanks for all the replys im not a great deal further than yesterday. but i am going to meat my local counciler next thursday and i have spoken to a few local comunity groups that i know have had dealing with land issues b4 and they say i have a good fight on my hands as the area i live in is quite run down and my makeing use of deralict land could be viewed as comunity development
Hello Alan and all the work H F W is putting into Land share Its a shame all these folk (Council Idiots) don't pull the same way Is it council owned ? Did she consult the relevant tomb? She is fire proof she thinks.Councils are shedding labour like mad have you nominated her for a change of employment? ??? >:( :'( :farmer:
wizard im not sure who she contacted. the land is definetley council owned and not sure what you mean by tomb
Is this the Parish council you have been talking to? if so go to the district council, and if all else fails write to your local MP, it just seems a terrible waste of land
dont think we have parish councils in scotland its north lanarkshire council houseing department i have been dealing with im not sure if this is the correct department but hopefully my counciler will point me in the right direction
thanks again for all the replys if any one else has any ideas id love to hear them
thanks
Alan
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Fingers crossed you are successful. Really, they should be grateful for people like you, willing to take on derelict and unused bits of land. Stops them having to deal with stuff like flytipping on it, and becoming an eyesore, surely? Maybe they would prefer than option though, sometimes they work in funny ways the councils!!
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With out seeming to wee on the fire so to speak. Although I understand your thoughts and intentions in making an unused peace of land productive. Your probably gonna have to concider the bigger picture; as well as cut backs the council are selling every bloody council tenant farm off, stuffing the chances for starting up in the industry to young farmers. >:( >:(
I'm not entirely surprised their shy of letting someone use their land etc, once they agree to access or lease their tied to it in some ways, they probably wouldn't have enough staff to cope with the paper work it would generate. ;D ;D
As for contact it doesn't matter how high you go, no law says don't start at the top, if you want stuff sorting grab the nuts of the top monkey and work your way down. ;)
Are you asking if they would sell it to you? or trying to rent it?
Also don't take this the wrong way, as in you on the cage for your own good, not meant like that, just think how they will think and slowly slowly Catch that monkey: The council may concider a use of land like allotment or shared usage with the surrounding houses, in which it benefits the community rather than an option that benefits one person?; the n of course depend how big a bit of land you looking at: just a thought :'(
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Does anyone know how you can fairly easily find out who owns a particular piece of land?
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I don't believe there is Annie love.Not from the dealings I have had with them ??? :farmer:
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Somewhere in teh back of my mind I vaguely remember my son-in-law mentioning a website where you could find out who owned a piece of land.
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If I wanted to know I would try the Land Registry Agency first.Then the Local Council.If its in the country or village ask in the pub of some of the locals They know every thing and more besides ;D ;D ;D :farmer:
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With out seeming to wee on the fire so to speak. Although I understand your thoughts and intentions in making an unused peace of land productive. Your probably gonna have to concider the bigger picture; as well as cut backs the council are selling every bloody council tenant farm off, stuffing the chances for starting up in the industry to young farmers. >:( >:(
I'm not entirely surprised their shy of letting someone use their land etc, once they agree to access or lease their tied to it in some ways, they probably wouldn't have enough staff to cope with the paper work it would generate. ;D ;D
As for contact it doesn't matter how high you go, no law says don't start at the top, if you want stuff sorting grab the nuts of the top monkey and work your way down. ;)
Are you asking if they would sell it to you? or trying to rent it?
Also don't take this the wrong way, as in you on the cage for your own good, not meant like that, just think how they will think and slowly slowly Catch that monkey: The council may concider a use of land like allotment or shared usage with the surrounding houses, in which it benefits the community rather than an option that benefits one person?; the n of course depend how big a bit of land you looking at: just a thought :'(
hi cobra thanks for the input
as far as the cut backs preventing me from getting the use of the land I was actually hoping that this would go in my favour as this bit of land is surrounded by council houses and needs to be maintained on a regular basis that cost would disappear if i was to get the use of the land . I also understand the legality of them letting me use the land. What did give me a bit of hope was that other councils have given use of land for this propose before on what grounds I don’t know but I am researching it. I know that a community or group request hold more stand than a individual one but in my opinion the the land if split between all the houses involved wouldn’t leave much room for each person to do a great deal. But I have got a few ideas on how I can put it forward so that it comes across better and doesn’t look like im just out for me
Again tanks to every one for there input because there some things that I might not of thought of and things that might be put forward in a different way
Alan
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Depends on the size, but a community area of some sort would go down well I think. Swings or a chute for little kids maybe
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You can pay these people to do a search and tell you who owns any piece of land in Scotland
http://www.millar-bryce.com/aboutus.htm
If you are very very lucky you might find out that the Council DONT own it at all! There are tiny parcels of land all over the place that fell through the net and are still owned by some ancient feudal superior ... ie effectively no-one! If you then use the land for a certain period uninterrupted (cant remember the period - may be 10 or 20 years I'd need to look it up) you can register a title to it then you own it!
A friend of mine was going to do this with some land adjoining her property but unfortunately before the time was up the Earl of something or other who counted it among his large chunk of Scotland, rumbled her!
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Hi,
Not sure if the rules are different in Scotland but I know that in England the following applies - info nicked from here http://www.farmgarden.org.uk/ari/documents/plotholdersguide.pdf
"Each council decides for itself how much of its resources to devote to allotments. However, if a council considers there is a demand, it has a statutory duty to provide a sufficient quantity of plots and to lease them to people living in its area. If local people feel there is a demand for allotments that is not being met, they can get together any six residents who are registered on the electoral roll and put their case to the local authority to consider."
Most people get knocked back because the council comes back and says there are no suitable sites nearby that they own, but as you have already identified one they can't do this with you. I know you said the area of land isn't that large but I think splitting it into 6 is the minimum requirement to force the council to do something via the allotment route.
Other than that definitely agree with the local councillor and MP route and have you thought about going to the local paper? A nice little story about how you want to tidy up the local area, live healthily, growing your own produce etc etc but the council won't help....
Or, if that doesn't work you could go down the guerilla gardening route (www.guerillagardening.org). Surely nowadays the council won't have the money or resources to challenge you! ::)
Good luck with it! ;D
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With no malice intended, if you live within North Lanarkshire you have probably spoken to the wrong gal or guy!
I'm one of these 'council idiots' (actually we're not all so bad) and one of the surveyors who would deal with your case. I havent come across you - hence you may have been barking up the wrong tree.
Councillors can be very helpful, however they often just come back and ask the individual responsible what the details are so they understand. If there is a reason you were told no, the councillor will simply have this explained. If anyone else has a propery issu I'd be happy to advise where I can. :-)
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If anyone else has a propery issu I'd be happy to advise where I can. :-)
Meh you may live to regret these words. :P ::)
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Isn't it funny how THE COUNCIL seems to have separated themselves from the people . I thought that the council was a civic thing ie of the people for the people ...not just for the council !!!
We pay their wages ...
We give them their jobs ...
Well what we give we can also take away !!! In this time of increasing uncertainty of job security , I wonder how many councilors or just plain civil servants feel 'safe' right now ... ?
Now is a very good time to ask politely for the use of 'waste ' ground . If all else fails ...why not just use it anyway .... how many people could they take to court these days ?
Ok , so worse case scenario , you use without permission , they tell you not to , you carry on, they issue an enforcement order , you obey and stop using it ... but someone else pops up and carries on the good work ... another enforcement order !! another person pops up ...just how much money would the council have to lay out , to keep going that way ?.... it isn't THEIR land .. it is our land ... ( the people of the area that is.) . I know that is a subversive way of looking at it ... but if councils want to play at being the SS then they must expect 'the people' to become the 'underground' .
I do know that not all councilors are horrible or bad or corrupt ....just like MP's there are some good ones ... cemetery's are full of them ... ::) ::) ;D
cheers
Russ
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I agree rusty. Get on the ground and leave it to the council to stop you. It could be years before they get around to challenging you.
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Don't p*ss off the Council. At least not yet.
Contact your local Councillor - there will be more than one because of the new voting system, so contact them all. The services involved will probably be either Housing or Property services depending on the Council is organised. If there are Councillors with specific remits for these services, contact them as well. Put the case thet you will save them maintenance costs and will be supporting the gwrowing of local food etc etc. - if you've got SNP councilors you might want to remind them that their Government has a food policy that supports local food growing.
Council staff, if you get the right one and therein lies the problem, are usually happy to help.
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It most likely would be a very long time before the council found out that you were using the land 'illegally' if you did so. But in this Gestapo propaganda brainwashed, curtain twitching , drop everyone in the kack thing that we call society , it would most likely be a neighbour that reported you for using said land... such is life these days ... ::) ::)
cheers
Russ
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It most likely would be a very long time before the council found out that you were using the land 'illegally' if you did so. But in this Gestapo propaganda brainwashed, curtain twitching , drop everyone in the kack thing that we call society , it would most likely be a neighbour that reported you for using said land... such is life these days ... ::) ::)
cheers
Russ
What a sad and cynical view of the world you have. I feel really sorry for you. :'(
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It most likely would be a very long time before the council found out that you were using the land 'illegally' if you did so. But in this Gestapo propaganda brainwashed, curtain twitching , drop everyone in the kack thing that we call society , it would most likely be a neighbour that reported you for using said land... such is life these days ... ::) ::)
cheers
Russ
What a sad and cynical view of the world you have. I feel really sorry for you. :'(
Sad to say but I think that Russ is right. It may only be one in ten or even twenty but there is always one person out there who is with the 'Gestapo'
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thanks Rosemary .... but it isn't the world I am cynical of , my cynicism is of the people who run it !!
People may say we don't live in such a world ... is that so ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1232041/500-spy-neighbour-State-bribe-tip-council-house-illegally-sub-let.html
You can argue that it is good to report people for renting houses out when they don't own them ... that isn't my point .. my point is they are getting people to spy on neighbours and giving them a lot of money to do so ... Bribery !!! is that not corruption ?
There are god knows how many web sites and phone numbers around now where you can report people for benefit fraud , tax evasion , insurance fraud , along with all the CCTV cameras that we are told are such a fantastic help in crime reduction . Well the police 's own records state different . They say that less than 3% of all crime is detected by CCTV .
CCTV on roads doesn't in fact stop accidents or decrease speed (that again is fact from the police themselves ) , what they do is earn £90 million pounds per year , they are simply a money earner .
I am in no way standing up for criminals ... my brother is one and is where he should be .. in prison . But the overall effect that government and councils are creating is a society of fear and distrust on a basis of corruption . Once again there is a similarity to 1930's Germany . Where kids in the Hitler youth were brainwashed into reporting even their own family to the SS or Gestapo .
You may think I am talking rubbish but my auntie is German and was in the Hitler youth . I have seen photos of her standing next to Adolf Hitler and shaking his hand .She isn't a bad person or a horrid Kraut SS sympathiser , she was just a kid in the Hitler youth , like many hundreds of thousands ,( at the time it was more like the scouts , than what it became later on ) , who was receiving a prize for winning a race ( I wonder if it was an Aryan race ?) .
Anyway , the fear and distrust that is being created is real . The fear of terrorism that has allowed so many law changes and robbed us of our civil liberties , is basically unfounded . They say there are many thousands of suspected terrorists in the UK ... who let them in ? Read the book Londonistan ... If there were so many just waiting to wipe this country of the face of the earth , why is it still here ... because the police are so good at finding them ? crap ... How long did it take them to find one bloke Raoul Moat ? and he was living under the village , even walking down the high street on at least 3 occasions . No, it is all created fear and distrust of those around us when the people to fear, distrust are the MP's etc themselves. Am I cynicle of society .... once again not really ... just those corrupt people who are controlling it, and therefore us .
Any sorrow should be aimed at those who try to utilize a small bit of waste land , or similar scenarios , but are rejected by planning Dept's who have way over stepped any 'remit ' there may have been to start with .
How many councils have corrupt planning officers , nearly every one I have had anything to do with . My dad owned a firm that did maintenance work on schools etc and all the councils he dealt with were corrupt. That isn't to say ALL councilors are corrupt no more than all MP's are . But even so called good ones can be corrupt . They accept trips and holidays , go to civic functions that cost thousands , have very well paid expense accounts , and who pays for all this ... we do .
This isn't a rant ... long winded maybe !! but not a rant , I am not having a dig or a go at you Rosemary , I am quite calm and happy , as I am most of the time in my life anyway . I just detest the total utter corruption that has filled our civil service and our politicians even our police force too. They are a complete runaway train , out of control ... somewhere along the line though there are a set of buffers !!! Will they stop before they reach them at full speed ? , I doubt it !! They will smash clean straight through them , and it will be a broken society that has to clear up the carnage . A society broken by the train wreckers .
cheers
Russ
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All far to true Russ.Please do not forget "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" but alas not "THEM" THEY THINK ??? :( :o >:( :farmer:
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Oh I wish I could have written that Rusty. I so agree with you.
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Absolutely agree with you Russ.
Here's an example. In the article on your post they mentioned houses being used to grow cannabis. We had one in our road. It was in a semi detached house and the connected householder noticed the smell and recognised all the signs (blacked out windows etc). He told the police.............nothing! He told the council........nothing!
Turns out that some Asian fellers had rented the house and converted the whole house including the loft and installed a pit bull!
It wasn't until some black fellers got wind (pardon the pun) of the house and decided they might quite like what was in there that the police got involved. Oh and the ensuing riot that took place when the two gangs had a fight may have had something to do with it.
All the authorities could have stopped this very early. Why didn't they? Turns out the Asian fellers 'knew' a local councilor..............obviously a coincidence!
Ian
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For a long time round here Ian it,s been Not what you know its who you know.As well as what comes in through the docks and through Immingham. ??? :'(
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You can search for land ownership using on http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/
Its surprising how much land has not been registered, if no-one complains or the current 'owner' cannot prove in their deeds that its theirs you can claim ownership of land.
Just because a piece of land is 'derelict' or outside your boundaries does not mean that its owned by the council.
Ta
Baz
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It sounds good in theory, but what is to stop a group of say travellers taking over the same piece of land using this argument.
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Land registry is only England
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There is nothing, in theory, to stop a traveller or in fact anyone claiming the land if it is not registered to anyone then all they have to do is prove they have used it for 10 years and it can be officially registered in that said persons name. If they have no access to the land then they obviously cant claim that they have used it. If the land is at the end of your garden then you could effectively use it and go on to claim it as your own if no-one objects within that time.
If I were you I would use the land, if the council does indeed own it, you'll hear from them soon enough. The most likely way for them to find out is a jealous neighbour who sees you expanding your boundary when they cant or wont do the same.
Search google for 'how to claim unregistered land' - in amoung all the spam websites there is some quality information that will explain how to go about finding who has the title to the land and if there is no-one, how to go about claiming use of it, eventually claiming ownership.
Back to the predicament though, it does seem strange that the council will not let you use the wasteland to grow your own veg and commit to a greener living in this day and age, you would think that they would maybe open the area to a number of people for a peppercorn rent perhaps then get an article in the paper saying how the local council has helped local people commit to a greener living by helping them with the supply of space to do it in. I know the job of the council should not be to spin media to a positive, but they miss out on so many opertunities to both help themselves and also help the tax paying citizens that employ them.
Ta
Baz
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Hey Guys!! You're all getting way off the mark.....
Sorry to be stroppy lol
The housing department dont deal with the issue you are discussing. Myself and my colleagues do.Thats why you're not getting the answers you should be. Alan, I'll mail you directly and you can tell me where your land is and I will confirm if the council owns it or not.
If NLC does not then there are other ways to find out - or at least try before the land registry (fee only £6 though)
Landlords are wary of ground leases for agriicultural use as they have to be for a max of 364 days at a time otherwise 'agricultural tenancies' can be formed which are difficlut and expensive for landlords to get out of. Someone spoke about whats called prescriptive rights but you have to occupy the land unchallenged for 10 years and thats a long wait which may be for nothing!
Am happy to have a chat about this and see if I can help or advise.
I