The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: NicAlford1234 on May 23, 2012, 10:31:37 am
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I've got a sow who farrowed her second litter at the end of march, and she lost the whole of her first litter very early on. She has now developed some sort of infection of three of her teats, possibly mastitis, and these three teats are the ones which her three suckle from. They have swelled up, the skin is dry and papery and cracked in places, an also she has cuts in her nipple as well.
Also, during the spring, she got very wet, and hence very dirty, so she got sores on her feet etc, however she is on the mend now, but she's lost lots of hair in places like the bottom of her bum and her chin, and now they are looking sore and red.
Is there something I can do? The piglets haven't been weaned off yet, but I'm debating whethe to put her straight back in with the boat or to wait a little. What do you reckon?
Cheers for any help!
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Nic,
I don't know as I have only had my first 2 weaners for a couple of months but it doesn't sound to me as if she should go straight back to the boar. In fact maybe she shouldn't have another litter.
There are lots of experts on here who can give a proper answer, I am only responding from the point of view of what would seem best for her welfare.
Sally
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But she is a great mum, and the only reason she lost her first litter was due to a problem on our side so that we couldn't mover her out of the field and into a pen in time, and so the boar killed them. I guess that I will see what she's like after weaning the piglets, but she is a lovely pig, and would be a shame to lose her..!
Do you think I should wean the piglets off sooner rather than later? They are nearly 8 weeks, so will be OK on their own.
Thanks Sally
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Nic,
If they are nearly 8 weeks then I would wean them. It would give her a break. At 8 weeks our OSB's had already been weaned and we brought them home. They have been doing really well.
Sally
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When was she last wormed ? (with an injectable wormer ?)
It sounds like she might have mange :-\ So get her wormed asap :thumbsup:
But I've never seen mange affect feet ??? That would be a worry for me - check her temp, check her eyes, ears and nose and maybe get a shot of anti-biotics for her or even better the vet out to have a look.
The teats she's feeding from will be very swollen, but if they feel very hot to the touch it could well be mastitus - again anti-b's will help and you can put human nipple cream or sudocreme onto her udder to help soothe it a bit :thumbsup:
With her last litter - were they born and then died or did she abort and reabsorb the preganancy ?
If they died shortly after birth it could have been that they didn't get colostum or perhaps if she had a worm burden some kind of placental crossover ?
I'd definately give her a wee while to get back to full fitness (and rule out erysepilas) before putting her back to the boar - as long as she doesn't get too fat you'll be fine and her fertility shouldn't be affected. Others will be along too with their take on it - so you'll get plenty of advice ;)
HTH
Karen :wave:
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Okay, just seen the bit about the boar - so ignore that bit ;)
As long as the piglets are eating on their own there's definately no problem weaning at 8 weeks.
I always give the sow half rations on the first day after weaning (3lbs in 2 meals but a bit of fruit and veg if you've got it) to reduce the chance of mastitus and help dry her off. Plenty of water though, especially with it being hot (for the piglets too)
HTH
Karen x
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Nic
Hate to be blunt but what the feck was she doing in with the boar so close to farrowing. Regardless of circumstances your sows welfare is of utmost importance and reading your missive you appear to have behaved very badly in looking after her.
DO not put her back to the boar yet, wean her piglets at 8wks they're old enough, take her away from them then worm her(noramectin/dectomax) jab, for a couple of days keep her rations to a couple of pound of nuts until her milk dries up and then up them so she gains some condition. Re her teats get in touch with your vet and get some tubes of Ampicillin (they're for cows but can be used well in pigs) and rub her teats she may also need a jab of long lasting antibiotic.
When considering your pregnant sows consider how you would want to give birth and apply the same accordingly!
For her feet it sounds like foot rot which is prevalent at this time of year you need to get her somewhere dry, wash her feet in saline water and dry and then apply terramycin spray betwen the trotters for a week.
Sorry but because of your neglect you're going to have a big vets bill and it might teach you to look after her a bit better.
One thing i cannot abide or will not tolerate is badly kept animals. There are no excuses. In times of circumstancial change there should always be a back up plan in place. Planning is everything in farrowing so remeber this lesson.
Mandy :pig:
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is pig keeping really for you i have not had a pig with footrot and this is Scotland :farmer:
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Firstly, she hasn't got foot rot, because I know what that looks like, as I have seen it plenty of times in sheep and this was definitely not the same thing. It was simply because her feet got wet and so they became sore, but now the pen has been dried up and re-bedded, the foot problem has cleared up completely.
As you should know Mandy, it is very difficult to tell when a pig is ready to drop and as this was her maiden litter, we didn't know what she was going to look like, as you should also know that they have less piglets in this maiden litter. We knew that the piglets could be arriving soon, so we were going to move her into the shed the next day, however overnight she farrowed, but let me make this clear that we were not completely clear that she was in pig to start with, and she had taken 4 months to get into pig, so that is why she was still with the boar.
Also, I'm not sure how I have treated her badly, she has simply gained an infection. This is the first problem that I have had, except from the two boars in the other post - which I wouldn't see as a problem anyway. I have been keeping pigs for 2 years, and this is the only problem, so I would appreciate it if you didn't judge my skills openly, however I would appreciate positive advice, not criticism.
Thank you for the advice Karen, and that will definitely be followed up.
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is pig keeping really for you i have not had a pig with footrot and this is Scotland :farmer:
You've been lucky, we suffer with it from time to time and i put it down to the amount of sharps in our land which penetrate the pad of the trotter, pig normally starts to limp and won't put weight on offending hoof, i bring them in dry them, bathe twice daily in saline, dry and spray terramycin. It normally clears up quite quickly. If it persists usually have to give an antibiotic as infection can get into foot but only if heat or swelling are present. Our old Delia used to be a martyr to bad feet but she was 49 stone! She used to have to have horse medicine as they had nothing suitable for her size, god bless her soul!(miss her loads coz she was a grumbler ;D )
Mandy :pig:
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:)
Firstly, she hasn't got foot rot, because I know what that looks like, as I have seen it plenty of times in sheep and this was definitely not the same thing. It was simply because her feet got wet and so they became sore, but now the pen has been dried up and re-bedded, the foot problem has cleared up completely.
As you should know Mandy, it is very difficult to tell when a pig is ready to drop and as this was her maiden litter, we didn't know what she was going to look like as you should also know that they have less piglets in this maiden litter. We knew that the piglets could be arriving soon, so we were going to move her into the shed the next day, however overnight she farrowed, but let me make this clear that we were not completely clear that she was in pig to start with, and she had taken 4 months to get into pig, so that is why she was still with the boar.
Also, I'm not sure how I have treated her badly, she has simply gained an infection This is the first problem that I have had, except from the two boars in the other post - which I wouldn't see as a problem anyway. I have been keeping pigs for 2 years, and this is the only problem, so I would appreciate it if you didn't judge my skills openly, however I would appreciate positive advice, not criticism.
Thank you for the advice Karen, and that will definitely be followed up.
Good i'm glad to hear it though foot rot in sheep is not entirely the same as in pigs
No signs?? have you not read any of the books, signs are visible usually up to ten days before and certainly 24hrs before)and as this was her maiden litter, we didn't know what she was going to look like,(again look at pics in Carol harris book its an invaluable guide) as you should also know that they have less piglets in this maiden litter. ( you should still have had a better idea of her due date and one of my girls had 17 in her maiden litter so thats disputes that fact)
however I would appreciate positive advice, not criticism. I offered advice which you think you know better about so be it and if you can't take criticism don't post we can only offer advice against what you write i also ofeer from bitter experiencce having lost a sow to mastitis because i was too cowardly to stand up to my OH who thought i was overpampering her by changing her bedding all the time so i stopped doing it so often she got a bite on a teat, became infected, mastitits reared its head, which became blood poisoning which lead to her very awful death right in front of me, something i would not wish on anyone (even you ;) )
Karen is very wise and much more diplomatic than me, which is what makes life interesting i call a spade a shovel and shoot from the hip.
Hope your sow feels better soon and in the future she gives you a stunning litter, but heed what 've said.
mandy :pig:
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and Mandy is more diplomatic than myself i call a spade the correct terminology and have been banned for being right to the point
it is amazing how some can be critical and not know that persons involvement in that subject
any breeding of any kind of animal should be accompanied with proper records date of service then anticipated date of birth for that species and records kept of survivors is it pedigree pigs you have :farmer:
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I am completely aware of this, as I have read up on this, but there are always exceptions, such as your girl with 17 piglets.
You may not be akin with OSBs but they tend to have smaller litters than some other pigs, which obviously don't show as much.
I appreciate the help you gave me with medications and such, but simply criticizing the way I look after my pigs, which you have no idea about - as I have only posted the problems, I am not going to boast about how well my other 10 pigs are doing am I? I'm here to make links with other small holders which I could possibly do business with, not take part in criticism. This is the place to get your questions answered and receive help and advice, not to get criticized.
Sorry to hear about your pig.
Robert, I am aware of this. As you said, we're all different; you call spades shovels and shovels spades, and I found a few of Mandy's remarks ruder than they had to have been.
No they are not pedigree unfortunately, we did think about it, but decided against it, just because I'm just a small-holder, and not looking for anything on a large scale.
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that is Mandy in the bad baby corner then it really is quite nice and invokes a lot of sympathy
part of having pedigree pigs is keeping proper records and a lot of pedigree breeders have less pigs than yourself :farmer:
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Ok, will look in to it!
Thanks
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Nic
I still stand by what i said a lot of what happened to your sow was preventable. I'll stay in the bad baby corner may make my back ease off a bit!
You don't need to keep pedigree pigs just to keep records even if yours aren't you can still make them individual record cards to make notes, keep service and birth records, weights, medicines etc even easier if you're au fait with an excel spread sheet.
My standards are high (too high according to my OH) and the trouble is i expect all others to meet those standards, as i have said i can only judge by what you write and apologise for any offfence given but sometimes strong words give people that kick up the backside they need to up their game. Not necessarily you but others reading these comments.
Mandy :pig:
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You may not be akin with OSBs but they tend to have smaller litters than some other pigs, which obviously don't show as much.
No they are not pedigree unfortunately, we did think about it, but decided against it, just because I'm just a small-holder, and not looking for anything on a large scale.
Here I come to disagree :o :D (no hard feelings though eh ? ;) )
My OSB gilt's first litter was 10, and to a Kunekune boar :o (naughty 'lil begger did the dirty when we weren't looking ::) ) She's due her second litter in the middle of July, so it'll be interesting to see if we have less this time round with pure OSB's. I think all pigs are capeable of giving good litters, providing the conditions and feeding are right for them - and the boar is doing a good job in the foreplay department (nudging the belly lots to release the eggs ;) )
I'm also a bit of a pedigree freak ::)
Can I explain my thinking though....
All pigs cost the same to feed and keep whether they are ped's or not, quality pedigree stock usually sells better than crosses or unregistered pigs. You certainly have the BPA membership to think about, but if you're breeding big numbers (and I'd class 10 sows as big numbers :thumbsup: ) it probably only works out at an extra £1 per piglet or even less - worth it I think, for the sake of being able to sell your pork by breed name (theoretically you could be prosecuted by trading standards if you sell unregistered pigs as OSB's and the same with the pork) It also gives you the option of showing your pigs, upping your profile and adding yourself to the BPA database when people are looking for pigs. Also, by registering them, they all count towards the breed numbers held by the BPA - and it might* just give you some kind of protection from culling if there was ever to be another major disease outbreak in the country.
*There are loads of proviso's with this and it's far from guarenteed - but they stand a better chance if they're registered as a rare breed than if they have nothing.
Mandy, I'm not always so diplomatic - remember the micro pig posts :o :o :o
I've upset a few people in my time too, just ask Robert & Stevie G ;) :D
It is hard to stay calm when it's a subject everyone feels so passionately about :-* My wee motto is "speak to others as you'd want to be spoken to yourself" (but even then, I don't always manage it ::) ;) ) I'll send you some reiki for your back - I just knew you weren't feeling yourself today ;)
Karen x
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I don't mean to say that OSBs can't have large litters, but considering that with her second litter there were only 3, and all survived, and on average OSBs farrow 6-9 piglets*, I was saying that 17 is a very large litter, and so the signs would be more obvious than a sow with only 3. ALso, I have no idea what the piglets were like, I just saw the 'tell-tale' signs that she had farrowed, which was confirmed by a local pig farmer, and also saw half of a piglet hanging out of the boar's mouth.
*according to 'Choosing and Keeping Pigs - Linda McDonald-Brown'.
I think pedigree would be something to look in to, however I live on my dad's farm and he is not fussed about pedigree and so I suppose this has rubbed off on me. I appreciate that you can sell them for more money and all the other benefits, but with a recent litter, I found it very difficult to find any buyers at all. Oh, and I don't have 10 sows! Definitely not, I have 4 sows, a boar, 3 piglets and 3 weaners... Just to clear that up!! But registering with the BPA is definitely something I am looking in to, as is registering with the Oxford Sandy and Black Society.
I appreciate, Mandy, that you are passionate about the welfare of pigs, but aren't we all? Is that not part of the point in this forum? I wouldn't have asked for advice if I wasn't worried about her. However, your apology is accepted, and thank you for the previous advice.
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well explained karen but you dont upset me i think i upset you more is that correct :farmer:
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4 is still quite a big number of sows even a Small litter with 1-3 there are signs and even the bagging up is an indication more attention to detail :farmer:
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So long as sow is ok thats all that matters,
mandy :pig:
ps get a better book than LMB ::) The others will explain!
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Someone explain?? ??? ???
Yes, I would like to remind you that this was about 9 months ago now, and I'm more worried about her swellings and sores than her past. So you reckon I should put some sort of soothing cream on her, and wean the piglets?
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Been out of working with breeding pigs for a number of years now (was a small herd 10 sow, 2 boars,), but still occasionally sit for smallholders with pigs (meat and breeders).
So looking through all my beginner pig books (4) the only one that says litter numbers is the linda mcdonald-brown one. You say you have 4 sows, what did they have on their maiden litters? The OSB breeder i know generally gets between 9-12 for her litters (she has been breeding for over 20 years with 10+ sows). Pigs in general have a smaller litter for first litter (the books say), but I know several who actually have smaller litters for their 2nd, but pick up again for their 3rd.
Most litters we had were weaned at 6-7 weeks (depending on sow's condition). So yes 8 weeks is fine, this may be why your sow's teats look rough, as the piglets are still on her. As someone said you can usually buy weaners at 8 weeks old (which should have been weaned for 5+ days before hand). I think the BPA reccomends weaning from 8 weeks (is that still the same?). The sow's milk production peaks at 5 weeks, and rapidly goes down, I think by 8 weeks the piglets are meant to be getting 70% of nutrients from pellet/grain feed and 30% will come from sow's milk (re-worded from The growing and finishing pig: improving effiecieny by English, fowler, baxter and smith)
We always used to take the sow away from the other pigs, about 2 weeks beforehand.. there were occasional mistakes of course where she was left in too long, and we had to transport the piglets in a wheelbarrow, but the sow would have always been moved to a seperate area (just not "indoors").
I've only come across one sow that was hard to tell when she was due and that was a Tamworth (and one of Linda's too), she was producing milk and her bags were full, yet there was no piglets for quite a long time afterwards. But even with those signs you can take her out (the tammy was already on her own)
Yes to soothing cream, and manage her food carefully. How does she look condition wise? since only rearing the 3 piglets.
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One sow had 9, 2 born dead. Another had 8 all alive and the last one is recently bought as a gilt, so no maiden litter yet.
Yes, they are definitely eating her food as well as milk, so will wean them off ASAP. How do you suggest I manage her food? Shes good apart from the sores, not to thin.
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well explained karen but you dont upset me i think i upset you more is that correct :farmer:
Hmmm, yes, probably Robert :-\ There are times when your comments just seem so obnoxious and derogatory to me that I just can't help but get upset - but I have a new way of dealing with you when on-line ;) I'll just stick my fingers in my ears and ignore you, til I see you face to face and then, if I'm feeling feisty I'll give as good as I get ;D And I'll have Bruce to hold my jacket :thumbsup: ;)
See you Friday btw (with my boxing gloves :o :D :D )
Nic, post weaning I'd cut her ration to 3lbs for the first day, then gradually up it - but only to around 5lbs (increase it over the course of a week minimum) See how she goes at that, if she looks to be getting too fat or too thin you can adjust accordingly - but 5lbs seems to be a good 'holding' amount for my wee OSB.
HTH
Karen :wave: