The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Cuddles on December 22, 2014, 07:28:26 pm
-
So a couple of my ram lambs decided to escape from their field yesterday and we're found by a neighbour close to his house. He didn't know where they were from so put them back into a field beside his house. It turns out that this field was owned by by a different farmer who is now making noises about sending me a bill for the ram lambs "spoiling" his pedigree flock of ewe lambs! Still with me??
As a newbie to keeping live stock and to the area I think he is at it but I'm not sure what the actual laws are? Am I actually liable for anything??
The lambs haven't been castrated as they were meant to go to the abattoir earlier this year but we're too small.
Thanks in advance
Cuddles
-
Well the farmer is probably right - I would be livid if a tup (lamb or fully grown) would get into a field with my pedigree girls. Although, given that yours were in less than 24 hours and depending how many girls were there, I should think you can ask to wait and see if any lamb 146 days from now.
For the future it is always better to castrate any ram lamb UNLESS you are 100% sure they are gone from your fields by late September.... the growth difference you get by leaving them entire does usually not justify the risk of them not getting to size and then becoming a nuisance if needing to be kept over winter...
-
I completely agree with Anke on all counts.
And yes, the farmer could be at you for compensation if any of his ewes are in lamb to your tup lambs. However, as Anke says, it's unlikely to be a huge number, as they wouldn't all have been cycling on the day it happened. Hopefully you have some insurance, so you would only be liable for any excess.
It's a risk keeping lambs entire; anything could happen to prevent getting them away - illness, a disease outbreak, a host of things. So unless one has a very secure area to keep them in once tupping time arrives, it's a better plan to ring all the male lambs, or at least sell any entires as stores in the summer if they don't look like they'll make it to the abattoir before tupping time.
-
unless your lambs were excellent terminal sire type tupps that will give fantastic meat lambs?
its a worry for anyone with traditional type beasts, that they may escape to a commercial herd, there will be no thanks, and a loss to the commercial farmer as he sells either by kg or by pedigree.
you could compensate by offering to buy the lambs from your tupps at his usual selling rate. bear in mind some sheep go for thousands :innocent:
but at this time of year, are his not already pregnant?
-
If they are pedigree ewe lambs, I would imagine (for most breeds) they will not be in lamb for next (almost this) year, but he would be planning on putting them in lamb Autumn 2015, and will not want them in lamb as lambs themselves.
I think you will probably need to be prepared to pay for him to have them injected to make sure they are not in lamb.
-
Have to agree I'm afraid. He's probably got along term breeding plan in place, and if he has a closed flock I can understand why he's pissed off. Basically if you want advice get your fencing sorted out properly!!
-
Good fences make good neighbours!
-
Be a good neighbour and go see the farmer and apologise in person. Come to some amicable agreement - you will need to compensate him in some way as he may have been intending to sell them guaranteed empty, or not breed from them this year as they were ewe lambs, and he could have lost income from having non-pedigree offspring.
Be *nice* - it will go a long way to help smooth things over with the guy. Remember that you are the one at fault :).
Then promise to fix your fences - all of them. And make sure you do so, promptly.
Next time it could be worse, your sheep could cause an accident on the road etc.
-
unless your lambs were excellent terminal sire type tupps that will give fantastic meat lambs?
its a worry for anyone with traditional type beasts, that they may escape to a commercial herd, there will be no thanks, and a loss to the commercial farmer as he sells either by kg or by pedigree.
you could compensate by offering to buy the lambs from your tupps at his usual selling rate. bear in mind some sheep go for thousands :innocent:
but at this time of year, are his not already pregnant?
Lambs from a terminal sire on a non-meat ewe lamb will do her considerable damage; mowhaugh's probably right and he'll want to get them injected.
At the main Swaledale breeding female sales, there are separate classes for Crossed and Uncrossed draft ewes. Uncrossed (only ever been bred to a Swale tup) fetch more money as they haven't been worn out to the extent that a Crossed ewe of the same age would be.
And yes, the problem is that any breeding females meantto be in lamb this year will already be in lamb; any not in lamb already were not intended to lamb as hoggs.
I agree, it's probably a very good idea to pay a visit, be apologetic, build bridges and mend fences.
And if you don't have insurance, get some. Aren't we all supposed to have public liability insurance at the very least, in case of livestock getting on the road and causing an accident?
-
I missed that they were only lambs.
take round some whisky sharpish.
-
This is a good reason to padlock your gates - keep unwanted out.
-
If their pedigree anything you are basically stuck with falling out with him and having ALOT of problems - hes within his rights to bill and sue / send debt collectors after any loss - Just imagine a pedigree texel flock owners face when a soay x texel cross pops out - Apoplectic may be an understatement..........
Id offer to buy any lambs born of your cross for the average rate for his breed..... Its the only fair thing to do.
-
But weren't they ewe lambs, and thus not intended for breeding this year? If so, the honourable thing is to apologize profusely and pay to put them on the morning after pill. If not, then yes, something along the lines of Coximus' suggestion has to be the right response.
I'm off to re-check all my fences first thing in the morning :innocent: .
-
Not sure of the finer points of this, don't think any 'law' has been broken, would be a small claims damages issue.
But......... someone else put them in to the field with the ewes so you would have a defence.
Even though de fence was broken :innocent:
-
prostaglandin injection 5 to 14d after the tup is removed is effective in 98% of cases. The usual dose is 0.5ml this is off licence for sheep but used under the medicine cascade. Some vets will dispense this but other practices like to inject it themselves as it can cause abortion & bronchospasm in people. cost usually under£1/head plus vet fees
-
I'm not surprised that the farmer is fuming! Though the neighbour thought to keep the lambs safe, he should have had the wit to put them in an empty field.
It really won't pay to fall out with your neighbouring farmers, especially as you are in the wrong, you may need help one day, so grovel a bit, pay the expenses and learn from this hard lesson!
-
Poor Cuddles! You're clearly new to sheepkeeping, came on here for some moral advice and support, and have had (almost) nothing but ticking off! (Including from me!)
So, you've had a misadventure, it may cost you a few quids and eating a bit of humble pie, but if you handle it well, you'll probably make an ally of that farmer, who hopefully will then help you out in times to come.
As will we :hug:
-
Not sure of the finer points of this, don't think any 'law' has been broken, would be a small claims damages issue.
But......... someone else put them in to the field with the ewes so you would have a defence.
Even though de fence was broken :innocent:
Exactly. This is a storm in teacup bit of nonsense... sheep do/will escape and some well-intentioned 3rd party did the 'wrong' but reasonable thing. While it is upsetting for the guy who might/might not have had a closed herd it'd be all but impossible to make a claim against anyone. So it should be a case of folk sitting down together, apologising and figuring out a compromise.
The closed herd owner had as much responsibilty to have his stock gates padlocked and signed as did the one whose sheep escaped.
Escaping sheep happen all the time around here..and unlabelled, escaped sheep that you can't track explains half my tiny flock of pets (two made it here and we couldn't trace owners so they get permenant sanctuary). I've traced and had at least a dozen collected from my property over the last 2 years. Some come via the front gate, some wade up the streams, some find new holes in fencing. You can't find every hole in 2 miles of fencing every day..specially when half the fences are't mine.
daftest of all is that to call trading standards and get a flock number address costs the caller money...so no-one rings. If neighbours dont recognise the number or no-one comes looking then - well you can guess how easy it is for tags to get swapped. Most of the farmers round here only have a rudimentary idea of how many sheep they have anyway with the dead, missing, drowned and washed away etc.
It's easy with my few pet sheep.. we can see them from the house and go give treats and a pat twice a day.. and if they did escape it'd be straight to the house for rosebush.
-
Poor Cuddles! You're clearly new to sheepkeeping, came on here for some moral advice and support, and have had (almost) nothing but ticking off! (Including from me!)
So, you've had a misadventure, it may cost you a few quids and eating a bit of humble pie, but if you handle it well, you'll probably make an ally of that farmer, who hopefully will then help you out in times to come.
As will we :hug:
Was going to say something similiar, you won't be the first or the last person this has happened to.
One of the very few arguments I have had with my OH was over a similar situation, we took a batch of tups to Oban mart, one didn't reach the reserve price, I felt that on this ocassion we should have just sold it as it really wasn't great, we brought it the 5 hours home, it jumped 2 fences, raped my ewe lambs, they all had to be injected and then we got £70 for it in the fat.
-
Go and see the owner of the sheep and shake your heads together in disbelief at the stupidity of the neighbour who put the lambs in the first field to hand, without first finding out where they belonged. Say, "Of course, I understand that you won't want a load of crossbreed lambs appearing in May, so what do you think is the best thing to do next?" If it's injecting or buying the lambs or paying the vet's bill if the lambs have problems lambing because they're too young or the lambs are too big, just pay up and look big about it. The farmer will respect you, the word will get around the district and you'll have earned many Brownie points and maybe a friend. Get aggressive, defensive or anything at all negative and the word will go round just a fast but you'll have exactly the opposite.
-
Get round pronto to apologize and grovel, grovel, grovel! Especially as you are new to the area - or your name will be mud among the farming folk :( .
Yes, it happens, :sheep: :sheep: stray, and every winter we round up a few wanderers from various neighbours. But I would be :rant: if a ram got in with my ewe lambs (it shouldn't happen as all gates are padlocked). It's pretty easy to heave a small sheep over a fence though.
Go and make your peace :bouquet:
-
There is a case for padlocked gates here all round. I am surprised a Pedigree owner didn't have his gates padlocked. I just have "rif-raff" but padlock all mine to help against theft and the local chap that's likes to abandon his sheep when in trouble or short of money/land. My only problem here is a public footpath that the council put on a swinging gate but are going to replace for a style as a rambler left it open and my ponies escaped :'(
-
I agree with most of what's been said, and particularly about grovelling and asking what the sheeps' owner wants to do. Basically he probably is exaggerating the problem while he assesses the situation. But if you ask him for his solution, then it puts him on the spot and he (hopefully) won't want to be seen to be unreasonable. The best case would seem to get them injected, if that's what he wants. I certainly would not agree to stand vet's charges for any assisted lambings or losses at lambing. You might as well give him an open cheque.
As for keeping ram lambs entire - there's nothing wrong with that as long as you have good fencing and keep them to yourself. (Don't think we need to dwell on that, as has been proved!) I actually don't castrate mine now as I think it's cruel. Applying a ring may not hurt them for long, but I defy anyone to say that cutting off the blood supply to any part of the body is painless. (And I've said that solely as an opinion, and not as a basis for argument)
Keeping livestock is a long never ending learning curve. We all make mistakes and so long as you learn from them, then you can move on.
-
Thanks to everyone that has taken the time to reply. I've spoken to the farmer concerned and offered to have all the lambs injected. He seemed happy enough with the apology and now doesn't think they were in the field long enough to have done any damage.
Interesting comments about castration, having read through various articles and posts on this forum I had originally wanted to get castrated lambs. However, when I contacted the local breeders they seemed horrified at the idea of castrating their lambs.
I'll put this down as a learning experience, send the boys to the chop shop, look out the fencing pliers and plan on starting my own flock of girls.
Cuddles
:)