The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Luce747 on August 26, 2014, 03:13:13 pm
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Hellooooo sheepy peeps,
I have a new seven month old southdown ram lamb and was looking to put him on some mix but can't figure out which he should have because no feed info seems to give ages?
So which stage feed would best suit a 7mos lamb? His forage is hay.
Also am I stuck with 20kg bags or is there some place I can get smaller quantity?
Finally, will it really cause him harm if he does manage to access any goat mix? I doubt he will ever get a look in before my 8 pygmys stuff the couple scoops I give them but would feel better knowing a very small amount won't harm a sheep if he does eat any.
Thanks for reading :thumbsup: :sheep:
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goat feed won't kill him
at 7 months i would guess grower but may also be finisher if he is heavy enough
is the plan that he goes for meat this year?
Cheers Ed
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Nope, he isn't for meat at all. He is a pet.. Will be using his fleece for spinning.
Can I just put him straight onto ewe nuts or whatever you call the standard pellet?
Cheers.
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If he (castrated I hope?) is for a pet, don't give him ANY concentrates, ever! He will do fine on grass just now, then move onto hay for the winter. If you have extended snowfall/frost you may want to give him a small quantity of soaked sugarbeet with a few rolled oats thrown in.
But actually he will grow well enough without any additional food. It's not that you are trying to grow him to a certain weight within a short time or that he has to do any work.
Don't let sheep eat goats food - goats feed has higher copper levels than sheep mix, and would do him more harm than good in the long run. OK other way round, if your pygmies are pets too, they can live on sheep mix happily as long as they have access to a Red Rockie (and sheep has NO access to it).
Is this a single sheep living with a bunch of goats? Make sure that before you introduce them to each other the sheep is clear of any worms and fluke.
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No, he is not castrated.. Why would that be a problem?
I don't have any grazing. The goats have hay year round and goat mix daily.
But you say hay and zero concentrate for sheep?
The lamb is separated by stock fence for now as I wanted to settle him in and introduce slowly as the goats are a bit scared of him!
He had a bit of carrot for a treat. Presume a bit of chopped veg ok?
Thanks for the advice.
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uncastrated pet ram is a HUGE problem - been there done that and had the kids hiding up a tree for 2 hrs :roflanim:
a tame ram has no respect or fear of humans and when his hormones kick in, he is likely to mount / butt little people very hard. its a real danger and not worth it. castrate asap as leaving it until the sheep is mature is also dangerous for the sheep as they can die from shock.
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Agree with above that in this situation it doesn't sound like any feeding is needed, but if you do decide to, the feed must be suitable for tups in order to preven the formation of crystals in their urinary tracts. (Is this the same for goats?)
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Lol. The great 'they' say the same about billy goats. Of which I've had 8 in my time.
The wethers are the worst!
Personally I believe all animals are difficult at maturity. After that period it's down to how they are socialised.
As for little people, I'm 5'10 and a competent handler. :thumbsup:
It's just the diet I'm not clear on :( But thanks for replies.. I think I'll stick with hay and some chopped veg unless anyone knows of a problem with veggies?
Thanks again.
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Why are you keeping a pet ram :o?
What breed is he? If you are absolutely sure you want to keep him, get him to the vets asap and surgically castrated.
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Southdown, as above
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Are any of the goats female?
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Unlike goats, sheep do not do well on an indoor regime. They need to roam and graze. They should also have companions of their own species.
If you do keep him on a dry diet, you will need to make sure he not only has access to plenty of fresh water but also that he drinks it. The urinary calculi are far more likely to form in a male sheep on a dry diet, whether or not it includes concentrates with or without any additives. Some people recommend salting the diet so that thirst is created, to stimulate drinking, but I'm not sure this would be effective in preventing calculi.
I'm guessing this tup's alternative is the chop, so I can see there is an argument that a non-ideal life may be better than no life. But for me, I would not feel right keeping a herd animal without company of its own kind, and I would not be happy keeping sheep without grazing year round.
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Thanks Sally
If he didn't appear to integrate well into the goat herd then I would certainly bring in a sheep companion for him but only time will tell on that one.
The dry diet part, I didn't know about but the lamb has taken to eating the hay like it's going out of fashion and has been chugging down his bucket of water so I wonder if he can adapt?
I must admit I did rather presume that a sheep would thrive as well as goats and mine breed successfully which I feel indicates they are thriving.
No billy here by the way. Just does and two wethers.
And yes the alternative was slaughter which sadly will be the fate of his two companions who didn't sell but I was not able to take three rams!
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Sorry, maybe I am missing something here... you bought an entire tup lamb with no intention on a) ever eating him, b) using him for breeding and c) ever offering him a blade of grass nor a companion of his own kind?
:thinking: Not sure he has got a better life after all. What's his purpose in life?
Sheep are not pets as such - they are bred for eating and their wool (before they are eaten). He will be a very frustrated boy when it gets colder and if anywhere near the pygmy grls may well bother them endlessly...
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Wow.
What made you presume b and c ?
It's people like you who prevent less experienced folk from bothering to ask any advice at all.
Just because I don't have a massive farm doesn't mean my animals aren't happy and healthy! For the record, I hired a 13 acre farm which I had to travel to and my goats were miserable as sin because the space was bigger, but boring. A kid I bred died when he got stuck in the electric fence and I wasn't there to save him. The pens were huge but as soon it rained they turned to mud and nobody had any grass anyway and it cost me a fortune for nothing so I bought them back home where they have a 22ft brick outbuilding and a relatively small but more interesting, safe and secluded enclosure.
As stated at the get-go, I bought him with a view to spinning his fleece. Getting a second is not out of the question, getting him a mate is not out of the question. However when people tell me this chap would have been better off going to slaughter why the hell would I get a second?
There are ways and means of making your point.
Thankyou for your input!
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Is this a wind up? Sell him or eat him.
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Oh good.. Another narrow minded my way or the highway opinion...
Well if the lamb can't possibly thrive here despite the fact I have had a thriving herd of goats for four years now, I guess he will end up in the freezer anyway won't he!
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Check out all that lush pasture.. Lol... Oh hang on, thought sheep couldn't be kept on dry lot?
Www.sheepfeedlot.com (http://Www.sheepfeedlot.com)
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Poor beasties :gloomy:
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I agree with you. But only because of their environment.. Not because of their feeding regime.
Remain unconvinced that my lamb can't be happy here. Time will tell. If he has lesser quality of life than my goats then rest assured I will do the right thing.
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Check out all that lush pasture.. Lol... Oh hang on, thought sheep couldn't be kept on dry lot?
Www.sheepfeedlot.com (http://Www.sheepfeedlot.com)
Feedlots are mostly used at the last stage of cattle, sometime sheep, production to fatten them up for slaughter. The animals will have spent most of their life on pasture - so it doesn't directly compare to your situation.
As a side note, feedlots are well know for producing some serious welfare problems (in some situations), they are rarely used here and do not have a good reputation in the UK.
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A ram lamb as a pet shouldn't need any concentrates to grow and produce wool, rams as not pets shouldn't really need concentrates in the first place
I would get him a sheepy friend if I were you, as goats and sheep are different
I also would not keep a sheep entirely indoors but if he didn't know any better then it's much the same as cows kept indoors on zero grazing I guess... But still I wouldn't do it
When we had milk goats we fed them mix but goats that weren't milking didn't get mix, so I don't know how you can feed goats mix and ram lamb none unless you cut out the goats mix or fed te ram lamb on goat mix
Just remember that there are many farmers/smallholders on here who have kept sheep for years outdoors grazing pasture with thier own kind how sheep should be kept, and so when the suggestion that a sheep "may" be on his own and kept indoors... Of course some people may show surprise and be shocked! What else would you expect really
If someone on here had te choice to either take a sheep to live indoors with no other sheep or be popped in the freezer, well most people would choose freezer, I would rather have a sheep in the freezer any day than put it indoors on its own and keep it there.
So remember people are just thinking of there own flocks and thinking of a sheep indoors with no other sheep, your immature replies make it worse as comparing a feedlot in the USA to one pet in the uk is sort of stupid
Goodluck!!
Jess
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[size=78%]what I cannot reconcile is why it's ok for sheep to be fed dry half the year and pasture when available?[/size]
If they can make that adjustment twice per year then why not stay on dry?
Who is to say my goats aren't healthier than those forced to go from grass to hay and hay to grass just because it's cheaper to feed grass when available? Perhaps my animals are healthier due to their consistent diet. ..
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Good god it gets better!!!
INDOORS???.? Who the hell said I was keeping him on his own indoors?.?
Do you know what.. I can't be bothered with this conversation due to the fact the critics aren't even reading the information properly so how the hell am I supposed to take advice from people who aren't even reading the situation this lamb is in??
I Give up.
What a shame.
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I did write quite a long reply to this but I think it's falling on deaf ears! Maybe when he knocks you over you might think differently to keeping an entire ram as a pet. Give him a job to do or put him in your freezer!
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We are trying to get a point across and that is.: DO NOT KEEP SHEEP IF YOU HAVE NO PASTURE - the sheep is unhappy, and although its digestion may work it is an expensive and un-natural way to feed sheep. If you have ever seen sheep coming onto fresh pasture after even a couple of days inside (say after lambing) you will know that sheep LOVE grass. There is no stopping a ewe, she may even temporarily leave her lamb alone for the first few mouthfuls!
Goats are not sheep. Goats are browsers and sheep are grazers. Your goats also ideally need a daily bunch of fresh branches, grass to nibble (actually they may well prefer the weeds) in addition to some hay and concentrate (if they are growing youngsters, milking adults or in the last 6 weeks of pregnancy only).
Yes commercial goats are often kept on an entirely in-doors system, but the reasons for that are mainly due to withdrawal times on any worming/fluke medication they may need if grazed - they would produce much nicer milk if given fresh greens!
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they have a 22ft brick outbuilding and a relatively small but more interesting, safe and secluded enclosure.
:(
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]what I cannot reconcile is why it's ok for sheep to be fed dry half the year and pasture when available?
If they can make that adjustment twice per year then why not stay on dry?
Who is to say my goats aren't healthier than those forced to go from grass to hay and hay to grass just because it's cheaper to feed grass when available? Perhaps my animals are healthier due to their consistent diet. ..
Still no answer to the above burning question...
All I know is I just gave a handful of grass and weeds to the lamb and he snubbed it to continue eating hay. By your statement, he should be desperate since the last time he saw grass was Monday.
Nothing is falling on deaf ears at all. I am trying to decide the fate of this sheep! He can have a mate, but not if neither will be healthy and hay/veg can't substitute grass.
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Many stores are finished indoors and ewes lambed indoors so I don't see 365 day housing/small paddocking as a problem requiring immediate dispatch to the freezer in itself but do see it as undesirable and likely to reduce welfare in some way; see the 5 Freedoms inc expression of natural behaviour - company of his own kind would be a non-negotiable must IMO. On the plus side you will avoid worms, fluke and rain but he is more likely to overheat, become obese, get pneumonia and certain other diseases etc etc
As stated by others urinary calculi would be a real possibility so you would be well advised to feed only a "ram mix" and not take a chance allowing any access to "goat mix" or other animals foods.
I also would advise castration as it would be a shame if he came to a sticky end in a few years because he got nasty as many/most/all pet entire males will if regularly fed, if a 100 kg tup hits you on the side of the knee they can really do some serious damage. I value whats left of my knees and for this reason I don't cut pet lambs as teasers.
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Thankyou for your post.
We've had a number of billy goats in the past and people said we were crazy but we never had one try to butt us, they just butted each other! That said they weren't particularly tame and chose to steer clear. So I could take the argument that if we hand feed this lamb or keep him too tame he could well turn to butting us aswell as the other animals.
I take the five freedoms seriously with all my animals and would certainly get him a sheep companion if he has a future here. I do though believe that sheep and goats are closer than people here are giving credit for.. Afterall, they can crossbreed! This ram is certainly bleeting/talking to my goats happily enough.
And WHY is it so widely accepted to keep one pony with one goat? Goats are very commonly kept as companions for horses and yet I suggest keeping a sheep in a herd of goats and all hell breaks loose!
Still can't find much input about feeding vegetables to sheep? Would carrot and apple etc be a good thing to compensate for the lack of water in hay?
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I'm not going to get into the 'debate' going on but please be very careful of your pygmy goats when they come into season.
A ram will try to mate them,
they will try to get to him,
they can cross breed.
Can't remember what breed you said he is but he'll be a lot heavier than them.
Can you keep them apart for 6 months?
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He is a southdown , 7mos old.
I can keep them apart, yes. What would the six months be for?
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How long are your goats coming in season? September to March??
Just a guess, I have dairy and angora goats not pygmies but had a very persistent girl last year who couldn't go out in the field when in season because she kept trying to get to the ram.
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All year round :(
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Sounds like it might cause a bit of a problem then.
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Will find out about getting him cut tomorrow .. Don't fancy taking risk of producing geeps!
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When you say 'cut' do you mean slaughter rather than castrated? As you will be happily keeping a grazing animal when:
quote "I don't have any grazing."
really?
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Look.. I'm still not convinced ok.
Too many people having a go and not enough intelligent input maybe?
Cows are grazing animals. Horses are grazing animals. How the hell do you think ranches in the desert and hot climates keep their animals? There are vast lands on this earth outside of your tiny small minded little world where people do things DIFFERENTLY! I'm sorry you can't cope with the idea that there might be other methods of animal husbandry beside your own.
Until someone on here can venture to answer my post about why it's ok for your animals to eat dry for extended periods then have to transition back onto wet in the spring I remain unconvinced. How do you know consistency isn't healthier?
You talk down to me yet you can't see your own method isn't even natural unless you do indeed let your sheep migrate when your pasture is low?
I do care about this lamb. I just want to feel convinced before I choose freezer over full life and at this point I am not convinced by the argument that 'we in the uk have lots of grass therefore anyone else in the world who doesn't, can't keep grazing animals'...
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As I am obviously not intelligent enough... no more answers.
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Our cows are housed 24/7 from around October to late March- they are fed a grass silage diet. Yes they are grazers but the majority calve in the winter and they are not hardy native cows but continental crosses, so don't enjoy being outside. Plus they would totally trash the ground due to the amount of rainfall we have here. They are fed grass silage- it is grass but in a different form.
Sheep are grazers too BUT the fundamental difference between them and cows is they are hardy little things and prefer to be outside. If the weather is a bit rubbish they will put their bums in the hedge and sit it out. They will only eat hay if there's no grass available. I brought my lambs in for fly strike treatment the other day and they had to stay in slightly longer than expected as it rained heavily, they were housed in the hay shed and quite literally had a wall of hay (stacked bales) to chew through. But they were desperate to get out and the minute they hit the grass again it was heads down and chewing.
Grass, hay, silage, haylage it's all grass at the end of the day just in different forms,, with sheep it boils down to the fact they are outside grazing animals and it is totally un natural to be inside on hay 24/7.
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I think the point which is being missed here Luce, is that yes, you can keep a sheep indoors/in a small enclosure and only feed it dry food, just like you can keep a chicken in a rabbit hutch, or have a dog and not walk it. But it's not ideal. Personally, I (and others on here it would seem) would prefer to have the animal in the freezer than living in those conditions.
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I would give him good hay and nothing else,exept maybe an apple or so.. As I know it a ram will mate with a goat but due to differing chromasones nothing can come of it( (I know there have been tales of offspring but I don't think they are true)
I have known and kept sweet tempered rams and evil murderous ones . You are best placed to judge which yours is. One thing I will say and that is don't treat him as a pet, i.e. feed him from your hand etc. unless you are certain of his temperament. Good luck!
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Hello Luce747,
This is a bit long because I have thought long and hard about whether or not to do this, so I apologise if it sounds rambly and everyone else can ignore it!
I have been following this post with interest as I too, have recently bought 2 sheep the same age as yours, ewes as advised by the lady that I bought them from. She advised against me having even a castrated Ram for all the reasons posted here by others. I, like you, would consider mine 'pets' on the basis that I don't intend to eat them but I primarily got them as 'mowers' for my paddock. I thought they could do me a favour in helping to keep the grass down a bit and I could do them one as they would avoid the abattoir and could live a long and very happy sheep life here. That's not to say that I don't respect everyone on here who breeds sheep for meat. What I do understand from them though, is that their primary concern (in addition to and not as a secondary consideration) is that their sheep live a 'happy' and full natural as possible sheep type life before they send them off to very well regulated premises, that also do their best to limit animal 'distress'.
Bear with me...I'm trying to present an 'intelligent' perspective (!!!) as you have asked very specifically for one.
My primary consideration when I bought my sheep was 'can I give them an appropriate, sheeplike, HAPPY home?' I gather they can live for in excess of 15 years if kept as pets (if I don't kill them from fly strike!). You have taken the trouble to ask advice on here about the 'health' of your lamb and have received responses from some very experienced sheep keepers (I am unqualified to help with that as, like you, only a newbie to this) but I am a qualified animal behaviourist. You have presented the very real, possible and 'happening' elsewhere options for sheep (and other animal) husbandry. I think what we do have in this country though is the excellence in animal health care and husbandry that now places sentience, the perspective that the animals have feelings and can be happy or sad in the environments in which we place them at the centre of the decisions that we make about how they should be kept. I realise that not everyone does this but they should. They may still appear 'physically' healthy but are we as confident as we can be that they are 'psychologically' healthy? This is EQUALLY important. Because if they are not, they will suffer. We may not see it but it will be there. They may still appear to function well but they have a 'right' if you like, to experience and exhibit natural behaviours as far as possible even if they are going to be culled at a later date. If they dont, there is a wealth of good quality, evidence based reearch that supports the fact that animals will suffer, even if someone didn't mean them to. Someone else on here has already mentioned the 5 Freedoms and you have said that you know about those.
You have mentioned a couple of things previously which I will just select here if you don't mind, to illustrate my point:
'My goats breed which I feel means they are thriving'. Puppy farms breed countless dogs from miserable, sick, depressed dogs who are kept in appalling conditions. They can still reproduce though. I am not for one moment comparing your animal husbandry or obvious concern for your sheep to this, I am only trying to offer an 'intelligent' perspective for you to perhaps consider your comment alongside. I realise that if you didn't care about him, you wouldn't have posted on here in the first place.
'If they can make adjustments twice a year then why not stay on dry?' Animals will make 'adjustments' to the situations they find themselves in to survive. This survival instinct is both for a physical reason (they don't have any choice) or a psychological one (it somehow makes them feel better..such as with displacement behaviours.. Feather pecking with battery hens...weaving and wind sucking in horses that are stabled for too long, persistent barking in dogs that are stressed etc..etc..)
'I bought him with a view to spinning his fleece'. For one thing, I wish I was clever enough to do that with mine! But for another, I wonder when you will be wearing a jumper made from his lovely wool, if you can always put your hand on your heart and know that it is a 'happy jumper' or if, on reflection, it actually might not be.
I'm not confident that this is exactly the 'intelligent' response that you were hoping for as it isn't specifically 'feed' orientated and I am braced for a cross reply (!!) I know that your enquiry was about 'feed' but you have in fact, opened up an interesting debate (a good thing) because feed is only one aspect of the holistic approach to the care of our animals. My intention has not been to criticise you in any way.
And finally, as you have spinning talents, which I do not (!!) and if you decide ultimately that a different home might be your choice for your lamb (if you don't eat him) I will have 2 fleeces that I won't have any skills to do anything with if you're interested! Otherwise, I have been thinking loft insulation.......!
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Oopsiboughtasheep- I wish there was a 'like' button.
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Grass, hay, silage, haylage it's all grass at the end of the day just in different forms,, with sheep it boils down to the fact they are outside grazing animals and it is totally un natural to be inside on hay 24/7.
I'm having trouble getting the indoor thing across. He is not kept indoors. All I mentioned was that my goats have access to an outbuilding for shelter. They are also locked in it at night with my poultry, for security ..because I protect my animals from predators as per one of the five freedoms.
But that could be a whole other debate! Nobody who keeps their sheep loose will want to talk about 'that' Freedom!
So to clarify, he is not kept indoors. He has a small paddock to roam in but it's all I have and there is no grazing because the hoof-fall prevents grass from growing.. Plus I have chickens who also make it impossible for grass to grow in.
Can understand your argument about the act of grazing. Even if hay can be a dietary substitute, I cannot fix it to the ground so he can graze it like he would grass.
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I would give him good hay and nothing else,exept maybe an apple or so.. As I know it a ram will mate with a goat but due to differing chromasones nothing can come of it( (I know there have been tales of offspring but I don't think they are true)
I have known and kept sweet tempered rams and evil murderous ones . You are best placed to judge which yours is. One thing I will say and that is don't treat him as a pet, i.e. feed him from your hand etc. unless you are certain of his temperament. Good luck!
Thankyou. I can see the offspring being highly unlikely but do you feel I could be quite sure no pregnancy at all would occur? I don't want to put my girls through pregnancy that's doomed to end in abortion or stillbirth :(
Understand your advice about petting him. He is sweet tempered but I'll reserve judgement as he is so young.
I guess his temperament could change yet but at this point in time, he is perfect.
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You have mentioned a couple of things previously which I will just select here if you don't mind, to illustrate my point:
'My goats breed which I feel means they are thriving'. Puppy farms breed countless dogs from miserable, sick, depressed dogs who are kept in appalling conditions. They can still reproduce though. I am not for one moment comparing your animal husbandry or obvious concern for your sheep to this, I am only trying to offer an 'intelligent' perspective for you to perhaps consider your comment alongside. I realise that if you didn't care about him, you wouldn't have posted on here in the first place.
'If they can make adjustments twice a year then why not stay on dry?' Animals will make 'adjustments' to the situations they find themselves in to survive. This survival instinct is both for a physical reason (they don't have any choice) or a psychological one (it somehow makes them feel better..such as with displacement behaviours.. Feather pecking with battery hens...weaving and wind sucking in horses that are stabled for too long, persistent barking in dogs that are stressed etc..etc..)
'I bought him with a view to spinning his fleece'. For one thing, I wish I was clever enough to do that with mine! But for another, I wonder when you will be wearing a jumper made from his lovely wool, if you can always put your hand on your heart and know that it is a 'happy jumper' or if, on reflection, it actually might not be.
I'm not confident that this is exactly the 'intelligent' response that you were hoping for as it isn't specifically 'feed' orientated and I am braced for a cross reply (!!) I know that your enquiry was about 'feed' but you have in fact, opened up an interesting debate (a good thing) because feed is only one aspect of the holistic approach to the care of our animals. My intention has not been to criticise you in any way.
You'll get no cross reply from me! Thank you for taking the time to respond.
The only cross replies will have been aimed at those who came here to ridicule or get on their high horse without actually adding anything at all to what is in my opinion a very serious debate!
I can't argue with your puppy farm comment. Suffice to say my goats are not kept in cages but I get the point you are making! I can only hope that my goats are thriving and content because I cannot ask them. But neither can anybody on this forum or beyond..
Thankyou for having a go at the 'adjustment' query. Still don't feel that between us, we have really managed to explain why sheep can eat dry for half the year and graze the rest without becoming sick and depressed from lack of grazing during winter (and summer in scorching climates!)
I take on board the behaviour problem that lack of grazing presents but if I raise this sheep til spring, on hay as many sheep keepers will be doing, will he suddenly realise the grass is back in other lands and become so depressed he would be better off going to slaughter ? If the answer is yes then off he must go I guess.
Nobody else will want him for breeding as he has no papers so his destiny is pet or slaughter as far as I can see.
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Someone with non-registered ewes may take him. Where abouts are you?
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West mids
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Southdown is my main breed. Our rams eat grass only. I would be concerned an uncastrated ram not used for breeding would become very fat after a couple of years. Rams generally get more stroppy as they griw older. My son once used to have to carry a metal dustbin lid for protection while checking a 6 year old one of ours in the Autumn. It's when he takes three steps backwards in preparation for butting you that you'll wish you'd had him castrated or sent him to cull!
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It's about looking for the warning sign. Same with handling billy goats.
I'm not frightened of rams and can handle the behaviour side.
Was the diet and welfare I'm fussing over.
He is 7months now.. What do you find is usually the ideal age to slaughter if we decide on that?
Cheers.
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It's more to do with his weight and condition rather than age.
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Ok so as a general answer messing about with different fruits and veggies (where are they coming from - house left overs?) is probably not a great idea and likely to cause more digestive trouble than it is worth unless they can be presented and consumed in smallish consistent types and amounts. Rumens don't react well to change, a pile of potato today and a load of carrot tomorrow could be enough to see Thumpers digestive transit time reducing rapidly.
I know people with access to waste veg are including it with silage and grains in TMR diets for feeding sheep and there the concern is poor digestion/diarrhoea. That being said if I had access to the same I would no doubt attempt the same...
ps. you can't see the warning sign if its behind you! :sheep: :surrender:
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Lol! Well if I get kneecapped I will be sure to come back on here and get the 'I told u so!'
I can understand that veg could cause more bother. I was just thinking maybe it would replace some of the moisture in his diet.
He is taking hay well but is really wanting to get to the goats when they have their grain.
Was just hoping the was something in addition to hay that he could have. Guess I'll pull him some grass and weeds.
Would a handful of porridge oats daily be any good?
Reason behind wNting to offer something else is that my goats go crazy for their grain then once gone they settle to the hay. I reckon the lamb will settle into same routine but I can't give him goat mix.
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I wouldn't feed oats, I'm not sure how similar goats are but sheep are incredibly sensitive and will bloat at any given opportunity. Straight grains can cause massive digestive upset. I would see if your feed store have a high fibre type sheep nut that's suitable for rams if you really want to give him something but I'd probably just separate him off at feed time or he will get very fat and bolshy.
Be careful with cut grass too especially if he is not grazing on grass as again that can cause bloat.
As long as he has access to clean water he won't need moisture replacing.
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Thankyou for having a go at the 'adjustment' query. Still don't feel that between us, we have really managed to explain why sheep can eat dry for half the year and graze the rest without becoming sick and depressed from lack of grazing during winter (and summer in scorching climates!)
I think it's a 'lesser of two evils' situation. Sheep outside for a long wet winter, especially if windy too, and/or snow which could bury them, may be better off indoors, and it is then the lesser evil. As soon as the grass and weather are suitable however, they are better off outdoors.
If we were talking 100% indoors then I would also be worried about overheating indoors in summer, but as you say you have a small paddock for him and his companion to roam around in, so it's the lack of grazing that is the main issue.
For me also there could be an issue about how much room to roam around there is - sheep behaving naturally will cover a lot of ground in a day, and that exercise is good for them physically, physiologically and, I would assume but can't know, psychologically. I see a lot of ponies in tiny bare paddocks to prevent them getting laminitis - well I wouldn't wish laminitis on my worst enemy, so I'd agree that its prevention is a priority, but equines are designed to walk many miles grazing every day, and unless that exercise is replaced then, for me, the tiny bare paddock is no solution. I intuitively feel the same about a sheep in a small bare paddock - where is his exercise? Mental and physical stimulation?
Before coming back to you I went away and re-read the government Codes of Practise on Welfare for Sheep. The first point was that the Codes for *all* species give one of the 5 freedoms as being the company of animals of their own species. So I'd say another sheep for company would be a must.
On your point about horses who have a goat for a companion, these are generally stabled racehorses, who go nuts incarcerated in a small box with no company. It's not safe to have two horses loose boxed, and not always feasible to take another equine companion on all trips, so some folk substitute a goat. Much better than no companion - but not as good for either goat or horse as each having a companion of their own species. Years ago, after a dog attack reduced my chicken flock to one hen, until I was able to restock, that hen was an only hen. She palled up with the sheep, and flocked about with them, giving every impression of being perfectly happy with the arrangement. She'd come and chat to us, and follow us about, if we went out, otherwise she'd be with the sheep. When we did get more hens, she left the sheep without a backward glance. It had been better than no company, but other hens were clearly very much preferable.
Back to the Codes, on the subject of housing sheep, it does not say that sheep should not be housed all year round. What it does say is
The greater the restriction imposed on a sheep
through housing systems, the less the animal is able
to use its instinctive behaviour to minimise the
effects of any imposed, unfavourable conditions.
Housed sheep require continuing conscientious
attention by staff well-trained in the nutritional and
environmental needs of the sheep.
The 5 freedoms it lists as
1. freedom from hunger and thirst
- by ready access to fresh water and a diet
to maintain full health and vigour;
2. freedom from discomfort
- by providing an appropriate environment
including shelter and a comfortable resting
area;
3. freedom from pain, injury or disease
- by prevention or rapid diagnosis and
treatment;
4. freedom to express normal behaviour
- by providing sufficient space, proper
facilities and company of the animals’
own kind;
5. freedom from fear and distress
- by ensuring conditions and treatment to
avoid mental suffering.
(Worth quoting in full, I think, as others reading the thread may not be as familiar with them as you are yourself.)
From which, coming from my admittedly biased preconceptions about sheep, I would highlight
a diet to maintain full health and vigour - which I am not sure a dry diet would do, and it seems that the concensus has been that adding random vegetables would not overcome this
freedom to express normal behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animals’ own kind - to me, normal behaviour for sheep is moving about grazing with other sheep
freedom from fear and distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment to avoid mental suffering - I have a horror of zoos, having seen too too many animals over my lifetime exhibiting very clear signs of mental torment in totally unnatural unsuitable internments, and it would worry me that a small bare paddock and access to a shed would be at that end of the spectrum for a sheep.
However, all of which said, you seem to be prepared to get him a companion of his own species (also rescued from death row, I hope, or I'd be in more ethical agonies!), and to investigate dietary variety and I am assuming therefore also other 'enrichment' ideas, so... One option which might work to give them the dietary variety (not just dry forage) could be roots or cabbage, which you could chop up and scatter, so that they would move around and kind of 'graze' to find them. Not too much or they'd get too fat, but just a handful scattered widely once or twice a day, to give them some stimulation, exercise and 'grazing time'.
And my final contribution at this point is about fleece. Southdown is lovely, although perhaps the most challenging of all the Downs fleeces, being nearly always incredibly, almost unusably short. If you would like a nice Southdown fleece every year, it wouldn't cost much more than a tenner to buy one. Your Southdown boy and his companion will cost you around 20 bales of hay per annum, probably similar in straw to keep their feet healthy, a total of perhaps 150kg roots / cabbages, routine meds (wormers, vaccinations, flystrike prevention) - I keep sheep for fleece myself, and I am very well aware that if it was just about the fleece, I could buy the fleeces I want for a fraction of the cost of keeping the sheep ;)
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Thankyou for your comprehensive reply.
I would hope that if this thread sticks around it could be used to present to other people who come here for advice on keeping sheep as pets. As a side note.. I hate the word 'pet'.. It conjures images of livestock living in houses and wearing clothes... All I mean by it is non companion animals who have no job!
You are of course right about the cost of fleece vs cost of keeping. It was more a case of wanting fleece from my own animals as that would be quite special.. But as somebody mentioned earlier, it wouldn't be a pleasant experience if the animals were unhappy.
This is one of the worst dilemmas I've ever had! I didn't buy this lamb out of sheer ignorance but he landed up with someone who likes to think outside the box. If he gets sick or doesn't remain settled here then I have made a mistake. A big one. Whether I have saved him from the freezer or not, I still don't know. :(
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Re the vegetables, we do quite regularly use turnips for just what you are saying, replacing moisture in the diet, in certain circumstances, for instance we house our hoggs from the beginning of November to January, partly to teach them to eat silage and hard feed and partly to keep them out of harms way at tupping time, but regularly have problems with water freezing, the turnips mean we have to lug less water about and I think they enjoy them. Also any sheep who have to be in for more than a night at lambing time are given a turnip in their pen. We do water them as well, but the old boy who works for us at lambing time said it used to be fairly common practice in this situation to give a turnip instead of water, and I would say they rarely drink much if they have a turnip.
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Would you be able to scatter feed without the goats getting it first?
I don't know if it's the same with sheep but with angoras the fleece stays better longer if they're wethers rather than bucks or does. No job to do and no hormones up and down each year. Everything can go into their fleece.
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Yes, turnips I cannot get but carrots I can do and I presume they'd be equally inoffensive.
With regard to angora goats, they were indeed 'the plan' until this lamb came along to complicate my life!
I must admit I am erring on the side of send the poor chap to his original fate and go back to plan A.
I just don't think I could eat any of the meat because he wasn't bought in for that purpose and I have not remained detached :(
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:hug:
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I could never eat ours, and rarely have any other lamb, especially at lambing time x :bouquet:
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I think it's harder if like me you're townie raised and conditioned to like supermarket produce :(
I believe plenty of people who were raised on farms still struggle to enjoy their own meat though.
Hey ho. If he does end up in the freezer I'm sure plenty of family and friends will be willing to have some.
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Rams don't give good wool quality, but wethers do. But he would need a proper diet in order to get the best wool quality from him, and the best way to achieve that is from good grass. If you can't do grass then he would have to have dry food, but as you can't feed goats and sheep the same feed then I think you are just making life hard for yourself and for him.
My vote would be to eat him, soon.
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What a shame that your best of intentions has resulted in such a dilemma for you Luce. There has been a lot of input on this discussion for you so hopefully that will help you to make a more confident and informed decision either way in the end.
P.S. (I have tried to put one of those nice 'send you a hug' icons here but can't seem to do it...I'm so thick! So you will either not get one at all, or you will get loads!..which, either way I hope will make you smile!)
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What a shame that your best of intentions has resulted in such a dilemma for you Luce. There has been a lot of input on this discussion for you so hopefully that will help you to make a more confident and informed decision either way in the end.
P.S. (I have tried to put one of those nice 'send you a hug' icons here but can't seem to do it...I'm so thick! So you will either not get one at all, or you will get loads!..which, either way I hope will make you smile!)
Bless you. It certainly did make me smile ;D
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Rams don't give good wool quality, but wethers do. But he would need a proper diet in order to get the best wool quality from him, and the best way to achieve that is from good grass. If you can't do grass then he would have to have dry food, but as you can't feed goats and sheep the same feed then I think you are just making life hard for yourself and for him.
My vote would be to eat him, soon.
Certainly the way it's looking. Trust me to get a southdown to.. Way too cute :(
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I believe plenty of people who were raised on farms still struggle to enjoy their own meat though.
It has taken me quite a bit of persistence to get BH to eat our own livestock. He thoroughly enjoys the meat, but you can see there is still something wrenching at him
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I think it takes time. My husband is a big burly mans man and he has a harder time than I do killing a cock chicken and an even harder time eating it. Even though that's what we have raised them for.
So easy when it's a survival situation but hard to decide to end the life of a healthy animal when those shops are all rammed full of meat that costs less than producing your own.
But it's not a sign of weakness. Just a sign of a well adjusted compassionate human being!
None of us would keep animals at all if we weren't animal lovers.
Another difficulty is the knowledge of how long animals can live in captivity. But if the same prey animal lived in the wild they'd be lucky to live a year or two anyway and we can kill faster and more humanely than other predators!