The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: princesspiggy on December 18, 2010, 07:59:52 pm
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i would love to raise weaners to finishing and sell direct to a butcher. before i approach any? does anyone have any advice? what price would you ask and are u paid per kilo? dead or live weight, who pays for killing? any do's and don'ts? how far in advance would you start making contacts? could be a year before i have any to send away.
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forgot to say theyd be birth-notified tamworths. also i looked at meat marketing schemes but nearest place to me was 210 miles away.
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PP,
This is a difficult market to enter.
Firstly your butcher will have an existing relationship with one or more suppliers. If you are only occasionally selling to him, he will need to upset his existing relationship to buy from you. eg He buys 2 pigs a week from Fred blogs wholesalers, but this week you want him to buy two from you, and then his wholesaler will have to find another outlet for the two he has, and may not be so keen to supply your butcher next time, leaving your butcher short as the wholesaler has sold them to a new customer.
Many butchers will have contracts to buy xx pigs per week from their wholesaler, so cannot just buy from you this week.
Secondly if you buy say 8 pigs to finish off, and the butcher wants two a week, then when they are ready, you will kill two a week for 4 weeks, meaning that you are feeding 6 longer than needed, and 2 of them for a month longer than needed, eating in to profit.
Again say if you buy say 8 pigs to finish off, and the butcher wants two a week, the difference in the first to the last in terms of size would be significant, and if your butcher wants say 60kg pigs, then only one pair over 4 weeks are likely to meet his requirements, so most of what you supply would be over or under target.
Butchers will want to buy on quality, and your butcher doesn't know you from Adam, and you have no track record. If he agrees to buy he may end up with something that has loads of fat, is too big, too small, wrong shape etc. Therefore he is likely to be very wary.
Given all the above, if you do interest a butcher, he is not likely to pay much per KG for them, and you may well end up making a loss.
Finally you have the choice – do you approach a butcher now to ensure an end market, but are selling something that won’t be ready for 4 months, with the risk that he will change his mind between now and then. Or do you finish some pigs and then try and find a butcher who wants them, potentially being left with pigs that no-one wants.
OK, so that’s all the bad news, but several on this and other forums do sell occasional pigs to butchers, so by all means try, but go into this with your eyes wide open.
I suspect that you would make little in the way of profit (the money’s in selling pork direct to customers not pigs to butchers), but could be fun to see if you can make it work.
Either way, good luck and don’t shoot the messenger !
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I agree with Oaklands - 100% ;)
I did contact a few butchers when I had my first lot, no-one was interested - for all the reasons listed.
We get our pigs butchered and packed and sell to friends and family. Hopefully in time, we'll be able to attend farmers markets with our excess (if we have any leftover ;) ;D) I think this is the best option in terms of making (a little) profit, but it certainly does mean more work & stress ;D ;D ;D
Where abouts are you ? You'll find your local area will have a farmers market group, it might be worth considering that. Plus it's a great way of letting people know who you are and what you do - it all helps when it comes to selling !
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what oaklands has said i would have said as well also they can buy what ever cuts they want try breeding a 12 ft long pig to supply the chop market also you have to concider the breeding programme say 8 piglets per litter+time to reach their specified weight +pregnancy time selling two per wk =104 finished pigs thats 13 litters per year now if you are still interested in committing financial suicide you have to factor into the equation the jolly butcher aspect buy cheap and sell dear also location of said jolly butcher the area and spending habits of his clientele can double the selling price that he charges or reduce it its a difficult decision that only you can make remember no one will take you under their wing just in case you take their outlet
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with farmers markets you are cutting into some other producers sales not that they come from a 10 mile radius of the market just my point of view
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Quick extract from another forum, posted a coupel of days ago (breed is GOS)
1st pig sold to our local butcher whole £160 (£3.23 per Kg (ish))
2nd pig sold to friends and family cut into joints £320
3rd pig kept for me.
You can see that you can double your money for selling direct
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presuming the pigs weighed the same they charged £6.60 per kilo to friends and family but was the butcher paying the killing charges figures can be turned into what you want but these prices are good given the weight and not having to pay slaughter charges and butchery charges
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thanx guys, so how do u sell at farmers markets legally. get pigs killed, get them cut into packages and vacuum packed,
wot do u do after that? need refridgerated van to transport meat home and to market? is it enough to just store in fridges at home or need washables floor etc in room where stored? need health inspector / license?
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it depends on the day of the farmers market IE market day Saturday cut and package Friday killed on Tuesday it seems your determined on this one thats a start next is enquire at your farmers market as to what they require IE stand certificates hygiene etc then trading standards as regards labeling hygiene packaging etc good luck you will need it and lots of it
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you will need a chilled display at the markets. we have two butchers who do our farmers markets and ive seen them struggle to get them into the halls. but if selling to friends and family then you could just pick the meat up from the butcher and drop it off. i doubt that your friends and family will mind. but to charge family twice as much as the butcher seems a bit mean.
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shetlandpaul thats my point two butchers its a farmers market the main producer not some ////////// what i would say is trade decreption
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but if selling to friends and family then you could just pick the meat up from the butcher and drop it off.
what if you sold direct to local villagers as opposed to friends. dont want to do it dodgy as would like to sell a fair few a year.
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friends and family is ok for you doing the butchery but not for selling to the public only meat prepared in licenced premises can be sold to the public
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IDEALLY - id love to have 2-4 breeding sows and sell best gilts for breeding and keep rest to finishing. (i have alot of woodland and main road frontage). just need to find a way that covers their costs and make a bit of profit.
we're gona start by selling weaners, but thats my dream. :hshoe:
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but for public, i can pick up from butchers without fridge-van and deliver en-route?
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that you will nead to find out from tradding standards if you have a dream live it or it will only be a dream
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im half way there, got 2 sows ready for AI shortly, bit feared of having 40 pigs next year and not being able to sell them!! lady 15 miles away had pork killed to order for about a year, not there anymore!! dont know why, expanded really quick - then gone! just pig sties left in field. bit worried after that.
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two sows when farrowed you have 16 maybe 20 piglets thats 22 sows will be farrowed again before any are killing size thats up to 42 pigs with feed and no sales
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i know, thats the scary bit.
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iv got the time and space and enthusiasm but cant run at loss. a friend sells half pig for £120 in england. is that bout right in scotland? rare breed meat marketing man said scottish people wont pay premium prices and thats why they dont trade up here.
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rare breed man wants a slap
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is £120 half a pig realistic up here?
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depends who your selling to and were. but you mention a lot of road frontage. i would be very worried about that. with escapes or stealing you could get into trouble.
have you done a proper costing of your production. if your planning on staying small then can you sorce your feed locally. ie from a farm and make your own. don't forget to add the cost of your breeding stock. insurance if selling to the public then i guess your looking at some quite diffrent cover. then there is your vets and housing costs. next add on your slaughter costs and butchery unless your planning to do that as said before thats expensive. then a chilled van or would a number of cool boxes do. you can get 1/2 a pig for about 80. so if you can get 120 per 1/2 then thats nice.
don't rush to get big take your time start with a litter and see if they sell ok then build up don't produce stuff until you know you can sell it. im sure the pig experts would be willing to give you a rough idea of costs/profit margins.
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by road frontage i mean my lands parallel to A90 so can put sign near road for advertising. but access is actually through village. literally 3 fences plus river to cross so quite secure but visible to motorists. (dont wana tempt fate tho!!)
i did all costings, read professional pig farmer book about how much kilos feed they should need, and did financial forecast etc but in reality my gilts ate much more food and theyre not fat. i know what price to sell at as weaners to cover costs, which is more than we bought weaners for in past!!
would love to keep weaners on til finishing tho. i had a good feed supplier but his prices have gone up 40% in 10 mths. >:(
already got farm insurance but didnt think about extra for selling to public, so thanx
im lead to believe that i need to get sows in-pig asap (there almost 1) or it can make them barren (same with giant rabbits)
projected financial forecasts are based on 2 litters per year. so to take it slowly and have only 1 litter a year would def leave me outa pocket (as would feeding growers i cant sell)
advice welcome
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It's maybe a bit late in the day to ask this (and please don't think I'm trying to be negative ;) just looking at all the options) but have you raised weaners to slaughter before ? If you've not and are jumping straight into breeding without plenty of experience you could hit problems. By raising weaners to pork weight and selling the meat a few times this lets you build a reputation for good produce and gain a customer base for your meat while learning in depth about the husbandry required and get confidence when handling, injections and general pig care as well as the slaughter and butchery process. It also means that when you come to sell weaners you do so as someone with plenty of experience and can advise prospective buyers well, all helping to add to your good reputation and increase your levels of sales. Although there aren't many places up north with pedigree Tamworths, you can't just assume there'll be a market for them and have to face the possibility that you may be left with all of them unsold, raising them yourself wih only the hope that you'll be able to sell them (and possibly at a loss) It's scary and risky but you've got to be confident that in the worst case scenario, you can afford to keep them all and have the space and time to do so, before you get your gilt in-pig !
Karen x
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i will echo everything you have said hh it would supprise you how many breeders there are up north and the demand for them(all breeds) i would also add you would possible have been better getting an in pig sow or gilt a bit dearer yes but you are of and running almost immediately you have to factor in the time you have kept them before production starts and will they take to the boar/AI first time this one there is a lot of variables in the equation on the negative side we think it is best to think of all the negatives then when they don't happen you are on a bonus just our weird way of working
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wev raised 5 weaners to finishing b4 but were for our own consumption. iv bin asked for meat by friends, but thats different to selling alot on reg basis. we chose these two gilts as weaners so i could make sure they tame and well handled before maternal instinct and sexual hormones kicked in. keeping them is 90% of the enjoyment for me so didnt a wild cranky old sow that was gona chase me outa field after her piglets were born. (though im aware it might happen anyway lol) if AI doesnt work 1st 2 times will try a boar i think. is pheromone spray helpful and when do u use is exactly - i know when their seasons are due. will prob start by selling weaners though would love to keep them on. i suppose you dont know til u try. i read on another site that there was a national shortage of birth-notified tam weaners? dont know if that is true though??
i'd prefer to sell pigs by the half, but know alot of people would want smaller amounts, then that makes it more complicated with pricing and only wanting best cuts etc.
grateful for advice so thanx cos would rather do it with knowledge than without x
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does not matter how much you pet them they can still bark and snap at you at birthing /handling and yes there is a shortage of good tamworths plenty of crap ones
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crap ones are still birth-notified?
i know they bite, our second batch of weaners came from free-range croft, and were in long-run fantastic temperment - but when we went to pick them up it was like comedy sketch, owners (rather like fawlty towers) were chasing piglets round field for one and half hours, and did actually get bitten a few times. owners were cursing and swearing full blast at eachother, was funny if not embarassing, tried to help but if the sows were biting their owners, if thought a stranger isnt gona help much. when i foned back year later to get more weaners, theyd stopped breeding and gave up!
still makes me chuckle, but all too aware it might be me next lol :D
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poor handling facilitys been there swearing done that still do bitten not yet as to giving up there heart could not have been in it
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PP when Lillian (or her OH :wave:) say 'crap' I think they mean in terms of conforming to the standards of excellence for the breed - essential if you're going to breed from them or selling on as breeding stock. Usually (providing you're a member of the BPA) ALL piglets are birth notified, when you're breeding from registered pedigree parents - but you should only register and sell the very best ones as breeding stock, otherwise you're running the risk of people buying from you saying they're planning on rearing them for pork, only to find out they've bred bad breed representations from them and are selling them on - this is very bad for the breed and also for your reputation.
Lillian is the Tamworth breed rep for Scotland, so she's the absolute expert on this, in my opinion her word is the law ;) ;D ;D ;D
As for giving up, (obviously there might have been personal circumstances which meant she had to stop) but more likely that she either couldn't be bothered with all the associated work (especially in the winter !) wasn't experienced enough to cope or realised she was never going to get rich doing it. It's amazing how many people think they can buy them, stick them in a field, 6 months later add in a boar and hey presto - piglets and profits ::) If it was THAT easy, everyone would be doing it :-\
I started keeping pigs to help the breeds at risk, produce some lovely pork for ourselves and have the enjoyment of looking after them - over the last 6 or 7 years that has grown to the stage of breeding and selling on piglets and pork to others. I love my pigs, wouldn't be without them - but I'm never going to retire with what I make from them financially ;)
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im more concerned with not running at a loss, read in pig farmer book, the difference between weaning at 6 weeks or 8 weeks, and then timing of subsequent pregnancy and therefore numbers produced over lifetime of sow, could mean difference between profit and loss. if professional farmers run at loss thats worrying.
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I think if you're only worried about the profits, maybe keeping pigs isn't for you :-[
You have to wean when the piglets are ready, not when's best for business :o
Commercial farmers (and by that, I mean those who have to make a living from it) are at the mercy of the suppliers and their demand for 'cheap' meat - this generally involves sheds, pig pellet diet and large whites (or similar)for high volume production and quick turnaround. What you're selling is rare breed, slow grown, outdoor pork. This will attract a higher value for the piglets and the pork - but as has been discussed at length just about everywhere on the forum, the margin for profit is small - you've got to be doing it for the pigs, not the profit.
Karen x
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large pig units 1000 +sows run very close to nil proffit 16 pigglets per litter can be proffit 14 per litter can be a massive loss in true terms you are in a loss situation already and they are not in pig yet bloody books light the fire with them you could write a book you would make more money at it
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we chose these two gilts as weaners so i could make sure they tame and well handled before maternal instinct and sexual hormones kicked in. ............ didnt a wild cranky old sow that was gona chase me outa field after her piglets were born.
H I L A R Y
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...................still laughing ! ;D ;D ;D
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I think if you're only worried about the profits, maybe keeping pigs isn't for you :-[
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dont be daft, :) i know my questions sounded harsh, i dont always have a great way with words -ha . i do completely adore my pigs, thyre my pride and joys. waited a long time to get my sows,sourced the best breeding stock i could. im def not into breeding poor quality stock and enjoy showing our animals to ensure theyre close to breed standard. im sure my 5 earlier weaners have given me enough experience to try small scale pig breeding, im at a place in my life where iv never been so happy, got the animals iv wanted, with a farm thats not perfect but suits us very well.
im mostly full-time with my rare breeds at minute, also breed ponies poultry sheep.just got cows and new goats arriving shortly. etc really interested in animals on critical list as i think small breeders can make a big difference to there numbers. iv wanted to breed pigs for many years, just trying to find out all info i can, as other people round here seemed to have set up then closed down. my dream is to breed tammies but need to ensure that they can stand on their own feet as iv other animals reliant on me aswell . pig-breeding could be expensive mistake if done wrong, trying to avoid common mistakes. its not all about making money but at same time they still need feeding, wormers and vet bills etc. slightly nervous of taking the plunge - which i will anyway- my idea of success is a good herd of good reputation, health and temperment, and still here in 5, 10, and 15 years!! we're not posh, closestwe get to designers clothes is HM forces Jacket LOL ;D ;D
learnt so much from these forums, thats why i ask so many questions, cos u cant always find answers in books. plus if u ask a farmer, u get one view, if you ask a enthusiast breeder, you get another and wer sort of in middle. all advice greatly appreciated xx
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I wasn't having a go, please don't think that for a second, but we've had some very bizarre questions from people who obviously don't have a clue what they're doing in the past - I'm always wary, but that's just me ;) It sounds like you've got your head screwed on PP - unlike myself, I'm mad as a hatter lol! But I did my homework and all the ground work too ;D
Mine pay for themselves - pretty much, and we either get profit (small one) or pork for ourselves.
The commercial guys are really up against it to produce a carcass for £x, usually pre-determined and not taking account for rising prices etc, so for them to turn a profit they've got to have HUGE numbers of pigs.
Providing you concentrate on quality breeding and rearing you should be able to get a better price for your weaners/pork, whichever you decide to do. Personally I'd do both, that way you know for sure the standard of the porkers you're selling and those who buy your pork, may at some point in the future approach you for a couple of weaners to raise themself. Key point here is ADVERTISING ! You've got to make sure you get the word out about what you're doing, so people in your area know about you - go to local markets, attend farmers markets and just talk to people, perhaps there's a farm shop or local grocers in your area that would consider selling your pork as and when you have it. Get posters up, get a website and really work on spreading the word ;)
Just gimmie a shout if you get stuck, I'm happy to help if I can ;D
Karen x
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thats great, actually theres a couple of farm shops around, neva thought of that. thought bout my own farm shop but wud rather be out in glaur (im learning-lilian x) than standing at counter.
never said i was sane - everyones mad in their own little way!! :love: :wave:
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I don't know whether the situation is the same as here where it is expected that 30-40 % of pig farmers in our region will go out of business next year. This despite the fact that farmers are still paid subsidies (the difference between survival and bankruptcy for many). Yet still the supermarkets demand cheaper and cheaper meat.
The only way to make a profit on pigs (in my experience) is to add value to the cheaper cuts i.e. bottled bolognese sauce (done my a professional not me) expensively packed pate, etc. Just our experience here.
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PIG FARMERS DO NOT GET ANY SUBSIDY OR EURO CASH UNLESS THEY HAVE ANOTHER ENTERPRISE POSSIBLY FOR NEW BUILD SHEDS BUT DEFINATELY NOT FOR HAVING PIGS
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i tho that too. thanx for all advice. will bite the bullet and do it anyway. ;D :D ;)
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For what is supposed to be an even market British Pig Farmers are definitely suffering.
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:wave:my parent used to supply the local butcher, 20 odd years ago but the prices are low and when they stared out it was for 10 every week then after they got in the swing they would have a lsat minute phone call make that 10 20 this week then the next few weeks would be 15 - 25 then back to 10 its hard to plan when sales are so up and down and if you let then down and cant supply enough one week they will find another source, so you can be left with pigs ready to go and nowhere to send them.they got out of pigs years back when the prices really fell out of the pig market.
i would try supplying farm shops or resturants.
we only sell to family and friends now on a much smaller scale than my parents had set up (once bitten and all that) and only keep traditional pigs rather than commercial.
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:wave:
i would try supplying farm shops or resturants.
thats a good idea, never thot about resturants.
does anyone know if you needa wild animal licence for wild boar hybrids? im sure u do for wild boars.
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there was a court case in Scotland in which it was proved that there were no wild boar in Scotland (going by the true definition) however you have to have them securely fenced in and they take longer to mature with less piglets per litter and they are very aggressive not to be taken for granted even if you have been used to pigs especially if they have piglets
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what are those at aviemore wildlife park? and ate wildboar sausage in aviemore restaurant. seen tam x wild boar in ad in paper.
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the last time i was at aviemore was 76 tam/wild boar is the wrong way round it should be wild boar sows / gilts crossed with tamworth we had them so are not talking s###e we know somebody that has them he has the licence the fencing that complies with keeping them and the carry on getting them in to sell and its not every slaughter house that takes them however every obstacle can be overcome
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interesting. maybe in 10 yrs (lol) why w/b sows and not other way round? are they crossed with tams to increase size? was at aviemore 5 yrs back, had wildboar and piglets then, we went to see the wolves but they must have been hiding, was snowing then aswell!! if wed bin a day later we'd have got stuck there for 3 weeks!!
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reduces the aggression
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cud u not use w/b AI on tam sows?
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i think you have got your niche market go on girl go for it
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dont know if ur joking lol :D :D
wud u need license 4 hybrids in that case and where wud u get straws 4 that from.
by the way - just wondering - the tam boar for AI at deerpark, is he show standard? seems to be only boar available that i can find!
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If you are going to keep wild boar you'll need a dangerous animal licence - a quick google will tell you all you need to know ;) I looked a while back, but think I must've forgotten it all ! I know you need REALLY SECURE fencing and all sorts of red tape and legislation - I was quite quickly put off just by that ! I think it was Hilary's mum who said they're fairly 'bitey' and very good at escaping. :-\
IF, you're going to go for it, I'd suggest fattening and slaughtering a couple first, just to give you a chance to see how they are to handle and what they actually taste like. Just trying to be the voice of reason lol!
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its been back of mind for 5 years. beta wait until kids can run a bit faster tho!! :pig: :farmer:
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well thats the thing with o/h and myself its up to you to decide
no hybrids just crosses i thought you were cornering this aspect
Richard overend should answer this it is not for me to comment on a stalwart of tamworth breed
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i must be a bit thick here.
i thot a tam x w/b was a hybrid, like a wolfxdog is a hybrid? am i wrong here?
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possibly the first cross could be considered a hybrid
then you have no back up IE paperwork only word of mouth and we all know how relliable that is
every time it is crossed with the tamworth it is less than it was and more tamworth is it still a hybrid or threequarter tamworth or dolly mixture depends if you are buyer seller or observer