The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: McRennet on October 09, 2011, 10:20:55 pm
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I heard a rumour today that Lamivac is once again licensed for goats.
:goat:
Is this true or is it a bare faced lie :o
McR
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Not heard that rumour round here!! Nothing seems to be licensed for goats .....my vet hands me something, then goes through the same thing every time - thats its really for sheep.
I did ask him why nothing can be used on goats, and he said its too costly for manufacturers to test on goats as well as other animals ....
Anyway, so far nothing of mine has suffered ill effects by being given sheep products!!
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Not heard that news- but then we don't use Lambivac, so it could have passed me by.
Beth
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Oh honestly it drives me round the bend all this nonsense, what can and can't be used on goats!
I can understand why some folk might want to cut corners. I get the feelnig that there have been quite afew debates on here regarding Lambivac vs Heptavac P
I don't want to start another one but do you know of an upt to date list anywhere that states what IS licensed for use on goats???
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There will always be this debate, .... I have always used Heptovac P for over 35 years, never had a problem .
It is the only vaccine that can be used to prevent pasteurella as a result of a trauma, rather than relying upon the goat having sufficient protection.
As far as I am aware nothing is specifically licensed for goats... we have to use stuff on the cascade system.
Give me a ring sometime to catch up Leanna.
Jane ROss
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Is there anything you give to sheep that you can't give to goats? Not being a goat person i am a bit ignorant on this.
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The simple answer is NO
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I've checked the manufacturer's website and NOAH and there is no mention of the licensing of Lambivac for goats. It is however the vaccine recommended by most vets with specific knowledge of goats. It is now widely recognised that goats don't respond well to clostridial vaccines and that by using a product that stimulates immunity against fewer diseases the immune system is directed to respond to those that matter the most in goats. However if a vaccine is used that purports to protect against a wider range of diseases it most be better than not using one at all.
One good thing is when it comes to using these vaccines it is accepted that if they have a 0 day withdrawal period in sheep then a 0 day withdrawal period will apply in goats. Unlike the situation with other medicines where if they aren't specifically licensed then they will result in a 7day milk withdrawal period and 28 day meat withdrawal.
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Just curious, why would anyone use Lambivac in preference to Heptavac P Plus? They seem similar except that Heptavac covers more diseases.
Not trying to start a row here, genuinely curious.
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Just curious, why would anyone use Lambivac in preference to Heptavac P Plus? They seem similar except that Heptavac covers more diseases.
Not trying to start a row here, genuinely curious.
Goats don't respond that well to these clostridial disease vaccines, so it is thought that if you vaccinate against fewer diseases that you get a better immune response to the ones that you have vaccinated for, and therefore better protection. As you rightly Lambivac is similar but Heptavac covers more diseases, so fine in sheep that we know do respond well to these vaccines but not so good in goats.
Also there is no point vaccinating for diseases that are unlikely to be a problem and for our goats the extra diseases that Heptavac has in it, are usually far less of a problem in goats than they are in sheep.
So it would seem that using Lambivac will give better protection against those diseases that matter most. I hope that helps answer your question Rosemary.
I suspect that the thinking on the best vaccine to use has changed over the years as more evidence becomes available.
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Thank you :)
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You're welcome :wave:
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There is a single pasteurella vaccine available, and it is usually recommended to give it to goats in between their first two doses of lambivac. i.e. two weeks after first shot of Lambivac. I don't know about how often it needs boostering, as I have not used it so far.
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We've never really had an issue with Heptavac- used to use the plain Heptavac as opposed to the Heptavac-P version, but plain Heptavac is no longer available.
Personally- my advice to everyone would be make sure you vaccinate with something. It is up to you which you choose, but having seen what can happen to animals that have not been vaccinated, it is far, far better to give them some protection.
Beth
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I'm a bit worried!
I have not vaccinated any goats. The women I bought them off don't vaccinate theirs and when I asked the vet if I should he didn't seem to think it necessary.
Touch wood everything has been fine so far but I have started going to shows which means my goats are coming into contact with others. I'm worried for my goats but also that I will be seen as a pariah!
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I don't think there is any vet that would suggest clostridial vaccination is unnecessary and most vets would say that not to vaccinate sheep is false economy, so I'm really surprised that your vet has taken a different viewpoint. Also the Goat Veterinary Society are fairly clear on the need for vaccination of goats that go outdoors. The clostridial infections can lie dormant in soil etc for years and if the goats get it the effect is devastating. It isn't that expensive to purchase the vaccine. If you are starting from scratch then they will need two jags 4 - 6 weeks apart and then repeat every 6 months. If the goats are kidding then I would time one of the booster jags for about 4 weeks prior to kidding so that there will be lots of immunity in the colostrum and that will help protect the kids.
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Localyokel, it really doesn't matter whether you use Lambivac or Heptovac P... I prefer the latter and have used it since I began goatkeeping more than 35 years ago.
Is it your Vet knowledgeable regarding goats ?... from your comments it maybe the case that he isn't, otherwise he would have recommended vaccination.
Are your goats CAE tested... they should be done every 12 months.... commonly done in March/April by a lot of owners.
You are right to be concerned when showing goats... they must not touch anybody elses goats, nor should you allow members of the public to touch them. It is the easiest route for cross contamination... another reason why I do not show adult females anymore, only show males & youngstock that I can keep in the trailer away from others.
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LIke you Localyokel, I bought in goats that hadn't been vaccinated -I lost the first one 2 weeks into them arriving (£200 vet bill for him) and my beautiful pure Toggenburg the year after, she quite likely had pneumonia - Nowadays they are wormed and heptavac P'd religiously and have been fine. Its really not worth taking the risk.If you know other goat keepers locally as who they use for their vet, I've now found one who knows his stuff and really looks after my little herd :)
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Now is a good time to start the first course of vaccine, then the next booster is due when they are shortly before kidding. You can vaccinate at any age, it doesn't have to be young stock.
If you go and buy Lambivac or Heptavac say it is for sheep at the merchants. mine are fine with stuff for goats, but I know others are a bit unsure, as no clostridial vaccines are licensed for goats. If you have a problem get your vet to order a bottle for you. With Lambivac you can keep the vaccine in the fridge, provided you quickly re-seal after using with some sticky tape and use a sterile needle for each injection. Be aware, goats might jump a little when injected, best to do it while they are tied on the milking stand and eating their favourite snack. If you haven't done this before get your vet to show you for the first time.
And yes, get a CAE test done and when you take them to be mated make sure that the male has a valid certificate too (neg test within last 12months). Also after the visits to the boy(s) have finished it will be worth looking out for, and if necessary treating any creepy crawlies that might have jumped goat during mating... I brought home some lice last year....
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Lambivac and Heptavac protect against a lot of things, and I would recommend using one or the other.
However- there is one really important thing- is your Tetanus vaccine up to date? If you have children- would you have them vaccinated for tetanus?
If your answer to those two questions is yes- then why would you not want to offer your own animals the same protection?
Both Lambivac and Heptavac P offer protection against tetanus, as well as other diseases.
I have been in the unfortunate position to have witnessed a kid suffering from tetnanus, and yes, she, and her mother had not been vaccinated. I would not wish that experience on anyone.
CAE testing helps to prevent a disease- it's your decision whether you test for it or not. But vaccinating saves the lives of your animals. If I were to recommend one thing, it would be vaccination.
Beth
PS- bear in mind that you need to CAE in order to attend some/all shows.
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my girls need their vacinations soon. as I only have two, is there a way to buy in small quantities?
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Have they had their inital two doses 4 weeks apart, so you only need to booster them?
The smallest bottle you can buy is a 50ml one (25 doses). I keep mine in the fridge, re-seal with tape immediately after taking out the doses, and I use one sterile needle that goes into the bottle, 2ml is drawn up, I then take away the syringe but leave the needle inside the bottle (diffiuclt to describe in words), put on fresh sterile needle and inject. Then draw up next dose with syringe minus needle, using the needle still in the bottle. then again inject with fresh needle (I boil my syringes and needles for about 10 minutes just before use, transport them in tissue paper to keep clean)
Hope this makes sense?
At this time of year your agri merchant would have to order the vaccine in, as it is not the usual treatment time for lambs. If s/he is difficult about it being for goats go through your vets, they can prescribe it under the cascade system.
As far as I know you cannot keep Heptavac in the fridge, but then I usually need almost a full bottle of it so only use it on the sheep and buy fresh every time.
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moodymare find out if there are other goat keepers near you and share a bottle? I need to booster mine too but think I@ll have to get the vet to draw me 2 syringes up and pay extra for the privilige this time ::)
Anyone know how long it can stay in the fridge once used in the sterile way described by ANke?
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we use the bvd injector gun the bottle fits on it and does not require to be changed until empty or at its use by date the heptivac bottle fits it as well and it can be stored in the fridge ask your vet if they are good they will tell you the truth about this method if they see gum written on your forehead they will tell you to chuck and get fresh there is a post on the sheep section about the gun and pics :farmer:
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Now wondering if I should do mine. My vet said there was no need as they never met up with other goats but if it covers tentanus, it's worth it. Need to look into it.
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I always vaccinate my goats against these clostridial diseases. And they always get a nasty lump/abcess at the injection site, which can still be there 6 months later :-\
Is it inevitable and if not, how do you avoid it? I've tried surgical spirit on the skin/hair and then inject but no difference.
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I always vaccinate my goats against these clostridial diseases. And they always get a nasty lump/abcess at the injection site, which can still be there 6 months later :-\
Is it inevitable and if not, how do you avoid it? I've tried surgical spirit on the skin/hair and then inject but no difference.
The best you can do is to be as clean as possible when injecting. That means a fresh needle frequently - preferably a fresh one for each goat and definitely not reusing it until its blunt, and not keeping part used packs of vaccine. Even then there can be lumps at injection sites as a reaction to the adjuvant (that's the bit in the vaccine designed to stimulate the immune system more than simply having the disease causing agent in it.
If you get abscess (other than the very occasional one) then it is definitely down to contamination and not being clean somewhere in the process. Surgical spirit is actually contra-indicated as it can inactivate the vaccine.
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Not quite sure how surgical spirit can inactivate a vaccine just by injecting through a piece of hide cleaned in it? Anyway it doesn't solve the problem. Not aware any other jags cause this issue in goats?
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when aids first appeared on the scene they were going on at length about needle sharing they claimed that even boiling the needles in water for ten minutes could not guarantee the needles would be clean but dip them in vodka result :farmer: