The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Primitive Sheep => Topic started by: namethatsheep on September 16, 2015, 08:58:09 pm
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Having just finished reading Peter Jewell's informative chapter - Soay Sheep - in the publication St Kilda: The continuing story of the islands (Glasgow Museum 1995) I began musing about feral or largely unmanaged flocks in the UK and its dependencies.
Soay - still on Soay and Hirta but what happened to those released on Skomer. Skokholm and St Margaret's (lightning?)? And Lundy?
Boreray - on Boreray, anywhere else?
North Ronaldsay - on eponymous island and a flock on Linga Holme (Orkney) and some were relocated to Lihou (Guernsey) - still there?
Any views or information welcome.
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I think the description 'feral' may not fully apply to sheep such as North Ronaldsays and the Hirta Soay, as they are managed to some extent. Ronnies are allowed onto the good grass for the summer months with their lambs, and Hirta Soays are closely observed by researchers and tagged. They used to be, and maybe still are, fed titbits by the forces outpost on St Kilda. So partly unmanaged.
I don't know where other feral flocks are, although I've heard of the Ronnies on Linga Holme.
One of the problems with feral flocks, is that visitors object mightily to seeing sheep dead or dying from lack of shepherding - a question with its pros and cons.
There are other flocks of feral sheep on some of the Scandinavian islands, and I'm sure elsewhere too.
An interesting topic.
Another aspect which interests me, is how much do previously feral sheep change when they become managed? For example, Soay tups are notoriously belligerent towards other tups, as they should be because of the way they organise themselves in their native home. However, having only a single tup for a flock of domesticated Soay ewes, means that the tup has been chosen by humans, probably using different criteria than the ewes would use, or that survival of the fittest might supply.
How hardy do these sheep remain once they have lived under human supervision for 100 generations? How are mothering abilities affected by birthing ewes being assisted if they have problems?
How and how quickly do previously domestic sheep revert to being feral if they are, say, abandoned on a remote island. I believe this has happened off Australia, and white sheep gradually were overtaken by coloured sheep, and grew smaller.
Lots of other questions out there.
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As always Fleecewife love reading your vast knowledge, being honest here, sure there's a book in there somewhere that would be very interesting :excited:
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I know my Boreray sheep still act like they are feral and take every wall, gate and fence as a personal challenge ::)
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Gotta lv em Fiesty :love:
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We lived in Guernsey from 1996 to 2010, and in all that time I don't remember sheep on Lihou. It is accessible across a tidal causeway, so I am not sure how long they would have stayed on the island! It has been uninhabited for quite a long time too, so I guess the sheep probably left when the residents did?
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As always Fleecewife love reading your vast knowledge, being honest here, sure there's a book in there somewhere that would be very interesting :excited:
'Obscure and unrelated facts' :roflanim: Now Mr F has a brain like an encyclopaedia, as long as it doesn't involve doing something I've reminded him of 3 times already :innocent: I'm sure he must have been a train spotter in his youth.
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In native ponies we use the term 'semi-feral' for herds which are largely - but not entirely - unmanaged. There is a concern that as the old breeders gradually die out, and their herds get dispersed, we're losing the truly semi-feral herds and perhaps their capabilities.
When I lived in Exmoor there were already two very distinct strains of Exmoor Pony. One still living semi-feral on the moors, gathered only a few times a year and otherwise free to roam and do as they wished or needed. The other being bred and managed as riding ponies, 'produced' for the show ring from studs and private homes, with stabling, and so on.
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Going off topic here but with cattle there is the wild/feral cattle of Swona in Orkney.
The Island was left vacant in the 1970's due to the remaining residents being unwell and having to be evacuated to access health services. Everything was left as it was at the time along with the cattle (shorthorn x AA) and since the evacuation the island hasn't been lived on but the cattle who are disease free remain and have reverted back to wild instincts - bulls living along apart from at the mating season.
I heard about it when at college in 2003 and Countryfile covered it in 2012. I remember watching it and seeing a copy of the Press & Journal from the 1970's left on the kitchen table along with a pair of spec's.
There have been studies done on the cattle and scientific papers written see http://www.researchgate.net/publication/227656663_Feral_cattle_of_Swona_Orkney_Islands (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/227656663_Feral_cattle_of_Swona_Orkney_Islands)
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North Ronaldsay's on Lihou, Guernsey
Found some more information...
From the New Scientist's archives
Published 29 August 1998
Seagoing sheep
From Peter Jarvis
So, according to Bryan Grenfell of the University of Cambridge, “sheep don’t swim”
(In Brief, 15 August, p 25). Oh yes they do.
Some years ago I filmed the flock of Ronaldsay sheep on the island of Lihou,
which lies off the coast of Guernsey. The sheep are unusual in that they graze
mainly on the kelp exposed at low water. During spring tides it is easy to cross
to the mainland via the exposed rocks and pools, which the sheep regularly did
in search of a more varied diet—and not to the total joy of the Guernsey
market gardeners.
The turning tide often marooned the sheep. The flock gathered in a bunch on a
rock facing their home across the fast filling channel and then together dived
into the sea and set out for the island. They covered a distance of well over
100 metres and against a fast-flowing tide. They even knew how to aim upstream
so as not to be swept past Lihou by the tide race.
and from the New Domesday Book, BBC 1986 -
In 1971 my Grandpa helped when the
reconstruction of a farmhouse and
staff cottage in a walled garden were
completed externally,while internal
work was still in progress. The
Farmhouse was approximately 31 feet
wide and 72 feet long. Overall the
buildings had taken approximately Five
years to complete. Materials were
taken to the island by boat when the
causeway was covered, but usually
were taken in a trailer by tractor. In
1961 the iSland was purchased by
Colonel Wotton, and some years later
in 1974 he bought a small flock of
rare seaweed eating sheep from the
island of North Ronaldsay in the
Orkneys. From 1939 to 1945 the Germans
used the island as an artillery range
and destroyed the original farmhouse
and its surrounding walls. By Martin
Worthington.
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Some interesting stuff on here too: http://www.vetsonline.com/publications/veterinary-times/archives/n-38-32/scientific-endeavour-story-of-north-ronaldsay-s-sheep.html (http://www.vetsonline.com/publications/veterinary-times/archives/n-38-32/scientific-endeavour-story-of-north-ronaldsay-s-sheep.html)
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There are feral flocks of sheep in the forests in england, the one where raoul moat hid out in, small flocks though. A lady mentioned it in her book. This is her website..... http://www.emmagrayshepherdess.co.uk/ (http://www.emmagrayshepherdess.co.uk/) she mentions, among other things, about there being sheep in the forest her not knowing, as well as everyone else, whose they were and she even tried to catch em. Would this count as feral sheep? as they were not managed at all.
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When I was on Skye walking a couple of years back half way up a mountain we came accross a large ram that was unsheared for at least 3-4 years, and this was at about 1800 ft, Did not see another sheep on that days walk and climb, a round trip of some 22 miles across a 20k acre estate (john muir I think) - so I assume their are plenty of small groups of escaped hill sheep.
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There are various herds of feral goats across the highlands. I think they are mostly descended from domestic goats abandoned during the clearances (150 years ago). They are total wild with the only management being keepers shooting a few when they think numbers are too high.
The best known are in Glen Shiel and Rogart as they can sometimes be seen from the road but I have come across them in a few other places (usually miles from any road).
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We see some feral goats from the road somewhereorother that I can't remember, but there now appear to have been fences and a catching pen built, so perhaps they are being managed now.
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Having a quiet day at work, and this interested me to find out more.
Turns out feral goats are the only survivors of the primitive breed of goats that used to be kept in the Scotland and North England 200 years ago.
http://britishferalgoat.org.uk/status.shtml (http://britishferalgoat.org.uk/status.shtml)
Why are they totally ignored by the RBST and why do they have no protection at all (as far as I can see there isn't even a closed season for shooting them)? You would think someone would care a bit more about an endangered native breed. (Although now I think about it I could think of a few more significant native species which seem to be totally ignored, even by most conservationists)
I wonder if someone could catch some and start a herd book............
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if they were protected and managed properly, IE like the wild cows on chillingham estate, then it wouldn't be too bad. They could even employ a few game keepers to control the numbers and have controlled hunts, a bit like deer. In a way protecting them would be a good idea, so long as the numbers were controlled, the problem is animals, wild, are protected and when there are too many, like the badgers, no one wants them to be killed. There was a wildlife program on iplayer, they were talking about wolves coming back through america and how they were keeping the herds of deer at a controlled level. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140128-how-wolves-saved-a-famous-park (http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140128-how-wolves-saved-a-famous-park) read this its very interesting, I am not however saying reintroduce wolves, but like the wolves manage the herds of deer and wildlife we should do the same. Culling out weaker animals and keeping the herd strong, plus keeping them at a level where there are not too few, but not too many either.
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We see some feral goats from the road somewhereorother that I can't remember, but there now appear to have been fences and a catching pen built, so perhaps they are being managed now.
Would it be down in Galloway?
I know there are some down in that direction - I remember seeing them years ago when we were on a family holiday at Crocketford.
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We see some feral goats from the road somewhereorother that I can't remember, but there now appear to have been fences and a catching pen built, so perhaps they are being managed now.
Would it be down in Galloway?
I know there are some down in that direction - I remember seeing them years ago when we were on a family holiday at Crocketford.
I think it was more like round about Rest and be Thankful, but I'll check with the Great Encyclopaedia that's my dearly beloved ;D
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Having a quiet day at work, and this interested me to find out more.
Turns out feral goats are the only survivors of the primitive breed of goats that used to be kept in the Scotland and North England 200 years ago.
http://britishferalgoat.org.uk/status.shtml (http://britishferalgoat.org.uk/status.shtml)
Why are they totally ignored by the RBST and why do they have no protection at all (as far as I can see there isn't even a closed season for shooting them)? You would think someone would care a bit more about an endangered native breed. (Although now I think about it I could think of a few more significant native species which seem to be totally ignored, even by most conservationists)
I wonder if someone could catch some and start a herd book............
no protection for feral goats, if they are on your land you are entitled to shoot them :'(
article in the Northern Times about an 'unofficial' cull being done up here with bodies of not just billies but nannies and kids being dumped by the roadsides >:(
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That's is dreadful fiestyredhead, that should be illegal to just shoot and dump as it is downright wasteful. You would have thought if they killed them they would at least eat em, or sell the meat, I mean its a form of game right?
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http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Police-probe-possible-killing-of-wild-goats-10092015.htm (http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Police-probe-possible-killing-of-wild-goats-10092015.htm)
here is a link to the pertinent article, :'(
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Wild Goats seen Forest of Ae (D&G), also near Torridon and Kinlochleven and in Wales on Great Orme, Landudno.
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As a point of interest are you allowed to take the wild goats or do you have to ask the councils permission?
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As a point of interest are you allowed to take the wild goats or do you have to ask the councils permission?
I may have misunderstood one of your earlier posts that you condone shooting snakes but not goats! So where do you draw the line?
Personally if any overpopulated species is culled for food I'm OK with it and that includes just about anything.
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I condone shooting snakes to a point. If the animal is where it shouldn't belong and where it could be very dangerous to humans, then yes shooting it would be the best option. I know a lot of people may not agree with me, but it is just a view, I have never killed a snake before. On the subject of goats, they're in essence a farm animal. The reason I was disgusted by them being shot was because the meat was going to waste. Its fine if you're going to eat/sell the meat, but leaving it by the roadside is apalling, especially when there are so many people in this world who dont have enough food. I would draw the line if a species was exceedingly rare and in its own enviroment.