The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Fleecewife on February 27, 2022, 12:50:53 pm

Title: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on February 27, 2022, 12:50:53 pm
So, a crisis in the world, more fighting, killing and terror.
How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves? Suddenly the importance of growing your own food and not relying totally on imports to feed a country comes hurtling to the fore. We can see how quickly life changes from 'Na, they won't invade us' to 'Oh they're bombing us, but we're their neighbours  ??? '.  No time to be prepared, no time to change the way you organise your life, no time to get in your meds, stock your store cupboards and too early in the season to plant your crops.
This is something we need to learn from in the UK, something we have clearly forgotten since WW2.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Rosemary on February 27, 2022, 12:52:31 pm
Indeed, I would like to see the Scottish Government pay far more attention to food security NOW and, in due course, energy security.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: SallyintNorth on February 27, 2022, 02:06:13 pm
And this is one of the things that worries me about the move towards veganism in this country.  Vast swathes of the UK are best suited to growing grasses and other human-inedible plants and hence, meat and milk. And I would love to be disabused, but so far as I know, no-one has so much as offered a plan for growing a balanced plant-based diet sustainably in this country. 
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on February 27, 2022, 05:43:42 pm
And this is one of the things that worries me about the move towards veganism in this country.  Vast swathes of the UK are best suited to growing grasses and other human-inedible plants and hence, meat and milk. And I would love to be disabused, but so far as I know, no-one has so much as offered a plan for growing a balanced plant-based diet sustainably in this country.

There is no plan.  Veganism in the UK necessarily relies on imports.  It's a diet for the modern world. But a vegan diet plus vegan lifestyle cannot be achieved today sustainably.  Take footwear:  Plastic shoes - all that oil  Clothing:  cotton clothes - all those fungicides, pesticides and water, water, water, even Organic production of cotton uses more water than rice I believe. Vegan food: grow your own but for all those who don't are they truly eating food raised according to vegan principles?  No animal manures, no insects or pests hurt in the process, no greenflies accidentally munched in their sarnies? All that no meat bacon, no meat burgers, no meat pulled pork (I kid you not), no meat chicken, no meat sausages, they are all made in factories using oil to operate machines and are in fact as bad for you as all the other hyper processed foods available at low cost.  It's just another fad like the must-have raised bed.

I somehow don't think that the people of Ukraine could give a cuss about whether their food is vegan, vegetarian or organic right now, as long as they can eat something.  Out the window will go all those specialist coffees and wines, and people will be desperate just to get clean water again.


Not schadenfreude, total concern.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: arobwk on February 27, 2022, 07:48:53 pm
And this is one of the things that worries me about the move towards veganism in this country.  Vast swathes of the UK are best suited to growing grasses and other human-inedible plants and hence, meat and milk. And I would love to be disabused, but so far as I know, no-one has so much as offered a plan for growing a balanced plant-based diet sustainably in this country. 

Combine the over-hyped benefits of veganism (or just vegetarianism) with the UK drive for re-wilding and what does one have ?  A "home" diet of blackberries and a few hedgerow gleanings.  "Cleavers and nettle soup with cow parsley pepper anyone ?!" ... "What - no chips ?" ... "Sorry !"  Lol, but the "debate" about veganism is pointless unless one also gives up the idea of wide-scale re-wilding.  The Knepp Estate went for re-wilding with grazing;  the livestock being harvested for meat and bi-products (including body parts gleaned for very expensive pet-food items rather than for sausages no doubt).  They didn't bother with a pick-your-own blackberry and hazelnuts outlet as far as I know.   

(The above is not to ignore the insane situation in Ukraine and so many other places in the world where power politics have displaced their peoples and/or left them homeless, starving, thirsty and scared.)
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: macgro7 on February 27, 2022, 10:33:38 pm
So, a crisis in the world, more fighting, killing and terror.
How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves? Suddenly the importance of growing your own food and not relying totally on imports to feed a country comes hurtling to the fore. We can see how quickly life changes from 'Na, they won't invade us' to 'Oh they're bombing us, but we're their neighbours  ??? '.  No time to be prepared, no time to change the way you organise your life, no time to get in your meds, stock your store cupboards and too early in the season to plant your crops.
This is something we need to learn from in the UK, something we have clearly forgotten since WW2.
Ukraine (just like poland) has a perfect climate for growing cereals - they grow much better than in the UK, and because of that are much cheaper to produce. Same with potatoes, apples and many other things.
This is due to warmer summers.

Ukraine is still in much better situation then Syria or Yemen - they have cholera epidemic, drought for several years and famine. And at the same time are being bombed by Saudi Arabia. Yet we don't even talk about it  :'(

I just hope that Putin hasn't got plans to invade more countries 😕
No idea what he's really planning to do!
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on February 27, 2022, 11:03:47 pm
Well he's just announced the threat of NUCLEAR war.


It seems that many young Russians serving in the Army were told they were 'on manoeuvres' so the wee man knows his country will only do as he wants by trickery.


For all their big fields of grain, they still have to be sown, tended, harvested and distributed using infrastructure destroyed by war.  With such a good climate people can grow their own food as long as they have gardens and seeds. My concern is for people in the cities now being bombed.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: macgro7 on February 28, 2022, 10:25:51 am
Scary stuff. Most people in the cities live in blocks of flats - which makes it even more risky
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 02, 2022, 01:03:45 pm

Marsh Family song in support of Ukraine:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2YJg6_eQiU
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: macgro7 on March 05, 2022, 02:17:30 pm
"This year, Ukraine is predicted to account for 12% of global wheat exports, 16% for corn, 18% for barley and 19% for rapeseed."

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/ukraines-rising-role-grain-exports-complicates-impact-crisis-2022-01-26/ (https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/ukraines-rising-role-grain-exports-complicates-impact-crisis-2022-01-26/)

Those are percentage of GLOBAL GRAIN EXPORTS. That's massive!
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 05, 2022, 06:25:39 pm
So who's going to be doing the harvesting, transport and sales while there's a war raging, the infrastructure has collapsed and people can't get money from the bank? They need more than bread, things like vegetables and meat, which all have to be grown, harvested, processed and distributed for sale.  I know Ukraine is a bread bowl in normal years, and has a good climate for farming, but I somehow expect those projected figures were written before the war started.
After only a week or so of war we are hearing of severe shortages in the shops, and the places people live are being blown apart, cooker and all. Women are leaving in their thousands but the men and women who are staying to fight must be fed.  An Army fights on its stomach and Putin will be trying to keep his supply lines open, as will the Ukrainian Army. It's how things happen in war and those women and children who don't get out who want to are very likely to find food hard to source.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: doganjo on March 06, 2022, 10:50:28 am
There will be very little food available in Ukraine itself by now.

Apart from anything else, Russian soldiers in that long convoy are now looting shops as they are 1. afraid to stay in their vehicles, and 2. short of food.

And as has been said the Ukraine army needs feeding first so they can attempt to save their country.

What of the babies and children, especially disabled ones.  I saw one child in a pushchair, apparently disabled, loaded up with their few possessions, mother struggling to push it closer to Poland, other children hanging onto the pram or her arms

All we can do is send money to as many charities as possible in the hope they can help

https://donation.dec.org.uk/ukraine-humanitarian-appeal

This is the joint charities appeal

Your local Development Council will probably have material goods and food going over by lorry
and there is an aid organisation to take animal foods over too - World Dog Alliance, and IFAW
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 06, 2022, 02:55:26 pm
It says a lot for a country when its people take their animals with them when they flee. Lots of dogs but also cats.  I do wonder about keeping a loose cat stuffed down your coat all the way from Mariupol to Rumania (if they can get out)
Zoo animals, farm animals still need to be cared for though.  One zoo I believe decamped its animals to a safer country just in time.
What of all the sick, elderly and dependent people?  We have seen people in wheelchairs, Granny in a wheelbarrow, helped by family, but there are others who cannot escape alone who just have to stay and take what's coming.  All praise to those who are helping with this crisis, Who's going to be the one to eliminate the cause I wonder. One brave kamikaze hero, if they exist.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: doganjo on March 06, 2022, 05:19:14 pm
Who's going to be the one to eliminate the cause I wonder. One brave kamikaze hero, if they exist.
  I'd do it if i could get over there and close enough, but I'll bet his defences are pretty well impenetrable
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Penninehillbilly on March 06, 2022, 07:11:55 pm
Coward!!
He'll stand and encourage others to be maimed or slaughtered, of course making sure he is safe himself.
What an evil monster.
Hopefully he will never be able to visit another country, and if he does, either immediatly arrested for war crimes, or even better..... end of.

Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 07, 2022, 01:32:11 am
I'm hoping there's a young member of his guard who has seen how he operates and has rellies in Ukraine perhaps, who is brave enough to take on the task.


There is some evidence the Russian supply lines are having problems, as the Convoy troops have started looting local food supplies.  Modern soldiers will put up with far less than in the bad old days, and with a killing field being prepared for them up the road, the men in the convoy will not be happy.  Add to that a huge number of Russian tanks and aircraft have been destroyed, which the wee man did not expect and you can see that things are not going quite his way. He's so dangerous though, unbalanced and deluded, untrustworthy, but perhaps his smugness will be his down fall.
My heart weeps for the people on both sides caught up in this war of greed and idiocy, for their sons dying for a cause they don't agree with on one side, and don't want on the other side.


Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 07, 2022, 01:46:38 am
And now we hear he's targeting hospitals, nurseries and schools which has always been unacceptable in any war. Deliberate attacks on the civilian population.
Reading around the topic I found that the wee man observed what happened in the rest of the world when he invaded Crimea 10 years ago - nothing - and got the confidence to do it again.  He's right, we're doing nothing except sympathising with the people of Ukraine
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: macgro7 on March 09, 2022, 03:39:52 pm
And now we hear he's targeting hospitals, nurseries and schools which has always been unacceptable in any war. Deliberate attacks on the civilian population.
Reading around the topic I found that the wee man observed what happened in the rest of the world when he invaded Crimea 10 years ago - nothing - and got the confidence to do it again.  He's right, we're doing nothing except sympathising with the people of Ukraine
This is 3rd time actually.
2008 they annexed areas of Georgia (in the Caucasus, not Georgia USA...)
2014 they annexed the entire Crimea (beautiful place btw, always wanted to visit)
Ukraine thing has been going on for years though. I was reading comments from almost a year ago, when Zelenski said he supports Israel when Palestinians were getting bombed last May, people commented "wait untill Putin attacks Donbas: 🤔 😬
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: chrismahon on March 09, 2022, 06:38:08 pm
So France managed to arrest the 11 members of the French Foreign Legion that decided to desert and go to Ukraine to fight. Thank God for that as they are armed members of the French forces and to get involved in Ukraine effectively means France declares war on Russia. Now 4 have deserted from the UK. I hope they stop them before they get there. As you must know, NATO will not get involved.


Suddenly, how Ukraine feeds themselves becomes, sadly, a secondary problem.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: macgro7 on March 09, 2022, 07:45:44 pm
As for volunteering to fight in Ukraine (or any other country in the world) - most countries consider it treason to join armed forces of any foreign country. That's the reason British people were arrested after coming back from Syria.
They should also be arrested for joining the fight in Ukraine.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 10, 2022, 12:12:50 am
Other countries have stood back so far, but now the wee man has committed a huge war crime, with bombing a hospital full of women and children, do we continue to stand by and watch?  That was the way it went in Bosnia with evil war crimes, genocide, and we waited until it had ended before pursuing those known to be guilty were caught and dealt with.  I know it's to prevent escalation but it's horrific to just watch.
I don't think feeding people becomes a secondary issue. Starving troops on both sides cannot fight, so in this case starvation could be a good thing if it slows down hostilities.


What it does show is how scarily quickly a country with a large food production industry of it's own can be brought to its knees by lack of food.
Britain is extremely vulnerable to being cut off from food deliveries/imports and yet as a country we seem to be almost deliberately cutting our ability to support ourselves, to be self sufficient in food. We know how to do it, we did it in WW2, but it takes time for crops to go from seed to plate even in the best of circumstances. We need to learn from this.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: doganjo on March 10, 2022, 03:39:59 pm
I would .love for us to retaliate, but doing so will inevitably create world war 3 and involve other forms of ammunition - nuclear comes to mind, but he is capable of using chemical warfare.

That I think would be the end of the world as we know it.  Would the human race be able to survive.

Or is he likely to go ahead and use those wepons anyway?

Who k knows what is in  his sick mind
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: chrismahon on March 10, 2022, 06:38:20 pm
At last we have a heating oil delivery for tomorrow. BUT it is now 1.75 a litre, was 1.07. So if Putin turns up here I'll be asking for 540 to cover our losses. We have a vice ready for his balls.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: chrismahon on March 11, 2022, 07:29:51 am
Said on French TV this morning that the average price for heating oil is now 1.91. The reason (they said) was that 'fioul' (as it's known here) is used to run tractors and the farmers union has advised all members to stock up now for the year. So demand has outstripped supply and that has pushed the price up beyond the oil price increase, temporarily.


I didn't know tractors ran on heating oil?
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 11, 2022, 02:09:05 pm
It all comes from the same source, however it's processed.
Without fuel, the power goes out of the agricultural industry and without power farmers can't grow their field crops.  So a shortage of fuel caused by the war will have a knock-on effect on food production world-wide, not only in Ukraine. It's as well farmers are stocking up now as the situation will only get worse as the war continues.
We are lucky in that we don't use much fuel compared to some but I suppose we should do our bit to push prices up by filling our storage cans!
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: macgro7 on March 12, 2022, 01:03:15 pm
Now imagine, being in that situation for 70 years, when illegal settlers are cutting down olive trees, which are often the only source of income for poor farmers in Palestine  :-\

Ukraine exports most of their wheat, barley, beans and sunflower oil to China and the Middle East. In Egypt their is not enough agricultural land to support 90mln people living their - most of their food is imported, which means this war will have even more effect on even more lives than we think.
Average monthly wage in Egypt is around 100. Minimum wage around 60 a month.
Imagine living on this much when food is going to get a lot more expensive???
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: chrismahon on March 12, 2022, 01:21:04 pm
Well, after handing over a very large cheque to the oil man, I've been giving saving energy (so money) a great deal of thought. Problem we have is our oil boiler is a combi, which wouldn't have ever been my choice. We can supplement space heating with wood, which hasn't changed in price (yet), but hot water is now costing a fortune, both because of the fuel and also the poor insulation. I've checked the insulation, discovered a rat has been removing it to get to the warm tank and have repaired it . We're off to town on Monday to buy an axillary hot water tank. 100 litres with a standing load (heat loss) of just 1.07Kw per day. It's a mains pressure unit, as they all are here, which will simply be fitted into the hot water circuit pipe on the wall. Then the boiler will go off, or be turned down to its minimum of 30C and the new tank switched on. Electricity prices have been capped to a 4% increase here, so by my calculations this installation will pay back in 18 months.


If you have a hot water tank, give some consideration to the insulation, because it could be costing you a lot.
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: macgro7 on March 12, 2022, 02:00:05 pm
Said on French TV this morning that the average price for heating oil is now €1.91. The reason (they said) was that 'fioul' (as it's known here) is used to run tractors and the farmers union has advised all members to stock up now for the year. So demand has outstripped supply and that has pushed the price up beyond the oil price increase, temporarily.


I didn't know tractors ran on heating oil?
As for energy prices going up
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 17, 2022, 10:30:42 pm
Unfortunately this topic got hijacked to discuss fuel prices, not the welfare of the Ukrainian people so I shall lock it.
I knew when I started this that war would be bad, but it has turned out so much worse than I had believed possible.  I am completely stunned and horrified by what is happening in Ukraine today
Title: Re: How will the people of Ukraine feed themselves?
Post by: Fleecewife on March 17, 2022, 10:32:11 pm
Locked