Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?  (Read 9844 times)

Smee

  • Joined Oct 2014
Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« on: April 11, 2017, 10:06:26 am »
We are interested in buying somewhere larger and have somewhere in mind, but the land is being split between buyers and there won't be a shed on our proposed portion. I have read that under permitted development in England/Wales you are allowed to erect a new shed for agricultural  purposes without planning if the holding is 5 hectares or more? What I am wondering is how this 5 hectares is measured? is it the whole of the holding i.e. including the house, gardens access lanes or is it just the fields? it's a bit touch and go on whether we would be a bit shy of the 5 hectares unless we could be including the whole of the holding and we really dont want the faff of battling with the planners, too old for that  :yuck: We only need something big enough to store a few implements, bales /lamb a few ewes etc as we only have 20 sheep. is there a limit on size for permitted development ?  We did initially think mobile field shelter would do us but have seen upsets with planning in that respect. Any experience and input gratefully received.

farmershort

  • Joined Nov 2010
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 12:11:27 pm »
it's measured as a whole, but excluding the house and curtilage.

Now, the interesting bit is that it also includes rented land, which is even non-adjacent... I think this point has to be argued with the planners a little. But PD is exactly that... permitted. The planners have to find a pretty good reason not to grant, and it's a national permission, not a local one.

so, if you only have 11 acres without house and garden then, in theory and evidenced practice, you could rent a block of 5 acres nearby and be ok. The limit for building size for PD for agri use is HUGE! So don't worry about that. 465 square metres I think... and bonkers tall. We built the biggest thing we could afford, which as 30ft x 60ft x 12ft tall at the eaves (about 16ft at the apex). It is waaaaay under the PD maximum. What's even more daft is that 2 years after each PD application, you can apply again, for another building, as long as the total area of both buildings is underthe 465 sq m limit. In reality, this means that at the end of next year we could build another identical 30ft x 60ft shed and still be under the limit. After that, you're into full planning permission.

you may still be granted permission for a shed under the 12.5 acrea, but it'd be full planning.

Smee

  • Joined Oct 2014
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 01:26:19 pm »
Ahh useful stuff thanks farmershort and what I suspected. The thing is that the house is in an acre itself which we had hoped could be counted, (but it sounds if that would count as curtilage?) plus there is an access lane to the main field beyond the house with a substantial fenced off bit running alongside that  *could* be included, so we were hoping to get to the 5 hectares that way. A really good pointer about the renting option - something to think about. ;)

farmershort

  • Joined Nov 2010
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2017, 01:35:55 pm »
Curtalidge is a legal definition, and should be covered on the land registry maps with your deeds. Our house is technically in a 1 acre plot, but the vast majority is a registered agricultural field, with a field number. Tracks is an interesting one, but again it depends what is within the red lines on the land registry maps. It wouldn't matter if I covered 2 acres of one of the fields at our place in hardcore, it would still be an agricultural field retaining the full acreage benefit for PD.

Backinwellies

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Llandeilo Carmarthenshire
    • Nantygroes
    • Facebook
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 05:35:46 pm »
Curtalidge is a legal definition, and should be covered on the land registry maps with your deeds. Our house is technically in a 1 acre plot, but the vast majority is a registered agricultural field, with a field number. Tracks is an interesting one, but again it depends what is within the red lines on the land registry maps. It wouldn't matter if I covered 2 acres of one of the fields at our place in hardcore, it would still be an agricultural field retaining the full acreage benefit for PD.
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Just in case anyone picks up on this ....5ha for planning. Is different to 5 ha for claiming bfp.... In payment  scheme any tracks etc don't count!
Linda

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arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow: either over-crowded or villages left half-empty.
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 07:00:43 pm »
farmershort obviously knows this stuff.  I would add points and also ask a question:

I fully expect you are aware Smee that PD doesn't mean you can just do it, but I mention anyway - a PD notification needs to be made for your Local Authority's consideration.  A lambing shed will, I believe, need to be a prescribed distance from a protected building, i.e. a residential building (excluding the farm house).  Can't remember what that distance is.

Question: What exactly are the criteria LAs consider when one includes rented land (for PD purposes)?  For instance,  does there need to be a rental agreement for a minimum period beyond the PD notification?  There must be something like that, otherwise folk would just rent bit of land, put in PD notification, build, then cease their rental!!!

bazzais

  • Joined Jan 2010
    • Allt Y Coed Farm and Campsite
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 09:45:54 pm »
Permitted development is a nightmare unless you know the rules.  If you fit the critea, yes you get planning in 28 days.

But if I were you dont mention anything about storing animals in a shed as it gets funny.  Best bet is to have the animals and the need for your equipment storage.

The storage of equipment on a smallholding is much easier to get planning on if the smallholding doesnt have secure storage space for the stuff needed to run it.


Smee

  • Joined Oct 2014
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 06:22:57 pm »
Thanks all for the great advice as ever. Don't know what we would do without this forum. It looks like we have our 5 Hectares aok now by some negotiation of boundaries. So once we are settled in the new place (although that's another headache I anticipate, moving all our stuff, tractor and stock  :chook: :sheep: :&>) I will duly get drawings etc done and apply under permitted development for my shiny new storage shed so that we have somewhere to lock away said tractor and implements. ;D

Jyirrell

  • Joined Apr 2017
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2017, 10:53:06 am »
We have just been turned down for 28 Prior Approval for a shed. On 22 acres of apple orchard that needs renovating. We have 30 sheep, 4 pigs, 50 chickens with animals being increased gradually, 2 tractors plus lots of other power tools!!  All Because we sell the food and produce to friends and family and have not set up up proper accounts yet, so making a business. they refused saying the building is not necessary for the purposes of agriculture! Driving me mad!!!

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2017, 01:04:38 pm »
We have just been turned down for 28 Prior Approval for a shed. On 22 acres of apple orchard that needs renovating. We have 30 sheep, 4 pigs, 50 chickens with animals being increased gradually, 2 tractors plus lots of other power tools!!  All Because we sell the food and produce to friends and family and have not set up up proper accounts yet, so making a business. they refused saying the building is not necessary for the purposes of agriculture! Driving me mad!!!
Ring up planners  and ask them to come out for a site visit , if they refuse say you will appeal
A planning inspector would probably pass it if you prove its needed for agriculture.
Which council ?

Jyirrell

  • Joined Apr 2017
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 01:29:54 pm »
We have just been turned down for 28 Prior Approval for a shed. On 22 acres of apple orchard that needs renovating. We have 30 sheep, 4 pigs, 50 chickens with animals being increased gradually, 2 tractors plus lots of other power tools!!  All Because we sell the food and produce to friends and family and have not set up up proper accounts yet, so making a business. they refused saying the building is not necessary for the purposes of agriculture! Driving me mad!!!
Ring up planners  and ask them to come out for a site visit , if they refuse say you will appeal
A planning inspector would probably pass it if you prove its needed for agriculture.
Which council ?

The council is Aylesbury Vale. The planning officer came out a day before she decided to refuse it. I have spoken to the CLA and they said without a set of accounts it will be not be considered a business, and as such not be permitted development! some of the points I do not agree with! it was 32 days from receipt of prior notice to her visit. She said that the property was not fenced. (it is)However she did like the siting, size and of the barn.construction . It would seem her decision was purely she felt it was a hobby! chicken and egg situation... No barn/no expansion....no expansion/no profit

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2017, 03:10:54 pm »
We have just been turned down for 28 Prior Approval for a shed. On 22 acres of apple orchard that needs renovating. We have 30 sheep, 4 pigs, 50 chickens with animals being increased gradually, 2 tractors plus lots of other power tools!!  All Because we sell the food and produce to friends and family and have not set up up proper accounts yet, so making a business. they refused saying the building is not necessary for the purposes of agriculture! Driving me mad!!!
Ring up planners  and ask them to come out for a site visit , if they refuse say you will appeal
A planning inspector would probably pass it if you prove its needed for agriculture.
Which council ?

The council is Aylesbury Vale. The planning officer came out a day before she decided to refuse it. I have spoken to the CLA and they said without a set of accounts it will be not be considered a business, and as such not be permitted development! some of the points I do not agree with! it was 32 days from receipt of prior notice to her visit. She said that the property was not fenced. (it is)However she did like the siting, size and of the barn.construction . It would seem her decision was purely she felt it was a hobby! chicken and egg situation... No barn/no expansion....no expansion/no profit

Just set up some new accounts if you are starting a new bis and need a building  as you a developing and expanding and its justified i doubt its a justifiable excuse to deny it.
The planning inspector would make that decision not the council, and they very often disagree with council planning officers
The council can have justifiable input but it sounds like they are trying it on without knowing all the facts
 
Planning officers give all sorts of spiel and often contains tosh.

How large building ? What was it going to be constructed from ?

arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow: either over-crowded or villages left half-empty.
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2017, 12:49:45 am »
Agricultural permitted development (PD) ".... must be on agricultural land, which means land in use for agriculture for the purposes of a trade or business". 
And then, one might assume that any perception of "hobby farming" might change a planning officer's stance as much as it would make an HMRC tax officer's eyebrows twitch!   
After a bit of mulling over, I'm thinking the best way to go is to simply apply for full planning permission (PP) rather than PD.  I didn't need to prove that I had a viable/costed business plan to get PP.  All I said was that I had acquired land with intention of creating a horticultural biz requiring permanent facilities for storage etc.  While my LA was not enamored with my initial proposal for siting of stores etc, it was very clear that they supported my intention to establish a new rural business.  To note, I didn't over-egg employment possibilities:  I didn't say that I would be employed on the land 365 and I also said that any employment of others would be on a part-time (seasonal) basis.   
I reckon that's the way to go and it's not going to cost that much extra in planning fees. 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:53:34 am by arobwk »

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2017, 08:47:53 am »
Reading with interest...  We are about to notify our intent to build an Animal Centre for wintering cattle, with a milking parlour etc.  Our whole operation is a business, but whether it will class as an agricultural business I'm not sure - we're a cohousing site with farm, rearing animals and growing veg to feed us all.  Fingers crossed...
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Permitted development how the 5 hectares are measured?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2017, 10:08:09 am »
I got a couple of 60' x 30' agricultural buildings put up under permitted development a few years ago. I've been farming for 30+ years but were not asked for accounts and never have been for previous developments.
 
The criteria for putting a farm  building up is that you are a farmer. You don't need to be making a profit - that is only relevant if you want to put a dwelling up as otherwise the countryside would be littered with all sorts of abodes owned by people who just kept a few hens.


So - Jyirrell - with 22 acres and the animals you have, then you certainly qualify as an agricultural set up. What you do with your animals and the state of your fencing is entirely irrelevant. The trouble is that a lot of planners actually don't know their job and set themselves as judge and jury as a measure of their self importance. Did you put in an application, or just ask some numpty from the planning office?


Have a look on the internet at "Martin Goodall's planning blog". You'll pick up some useful facts.


Good luck with your application also Sally.  :fc: [size=78%] [/size]

Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

 

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