The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Hilarysmum on October 21, 2007, 11:25:24 am

Title: What breed pigs?
Post by: Hilarysmum on October 21, 2007, 11:25:24 am
Wondering what pigs everyone has? 

We are the proud supporters of a gang of Gloucesters, a troup of tamworths and a single saddleback sows, plus the boar and the assorted offspring.

Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Judith on October 21, 2007, 11:44:53 am
Hi

We are currently looking into keeping pigs and want to get a couple of weaners once we have their home set up.  We are intending to keep them for the meat - not as pets - so can anyone please tell me what the best breed is for good, tasty meat?  Is there any difference or do they all taste the same?  We are complete beginners so need all the advice we can get!

Thanks

Judith
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Dan on October 21, 2007, 02:09:24 pm
We're big fans of Tamworths. Taste great and are dual-purpose - are good for bacon and pork.

Bristol University did some taste test research some years ago and the Tamworth pork won, so they're endorsed by scientists!   ;)
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: farmingfriends on October 21, 2007, 02:59:53 pm
I have two saddleback gilts who are in pig.
Sara from farmingfriends
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Jon on October 21, 2007, 03:57:38 pm
Hi,

Tamworths are good, but what about somthing different.  Try middle white, very good meat (currently making some parma ham).  Although would like to know what the Mangalitza are like, looks like a multi pupose pig (meat and wool!)

Regards
Jon :D
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Rosemary on October 21, 2007, 04:04:59 pm
I think it's personal preference as much as anything and I think folk are quite loyal to their chosen breed. The traditional breeds tend to be fatter therefore more tasty, since the flavour is in the fat. Some breeds are favoured for different outcomes although I think this is more to do with size and conformation than flavour. Berkshires are usually regarded as  pork pig - they are quite small so produce smaller joints. Other breeds that are very long in the back are favoured for bacon. Tamworths are regarded as a dual purpose breed, producing good quality bacon and pork.

Also depends what you want them for and where you are going to keep them. Tamworths are the closest breed to the forest pig, so are ideal for woodland areas, although all pigs like woodland. The long snout on the Tamworth makes it a great rooter - so if you want land cleared, the Tamworth's your boy (or girl). The Gloucester Old Sport was bred to live in the apple orchards of its home area. Shorter snouted pigs don't root so vigorously. Pigs with lop as opposed to prick ears don't move as fast because they can't see so well. Our prick eared Tamworths were pretty fast on their feet and seemed to enjoy a good race around the pen.

Have a look on the Rare Breeds Survival Trust website or contact the various breed societies for more information and names of local breeders. It might come down to what you can get in your area - although I get the feeling that small-scale pig keeping is on the increase, so choice is getting better.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Hilarysmum on October 21, 2007, 08:53:58 pm
My all time taste favourite is the tamworth.  Just dont push them let them grow slowly.  (My opinion).

My friends have mangalitsas.  Lovely pigs but very hairy.  They carcass out smaller.  I believe Tony York at Pig Paradise Farm has mangalitsas now.  They are very intelligent, more dog like than most pigs we have kept.  We gave up keeping them because with their very hairy coats they are very well insulated against the electric fence, ours at least had the singleminded object of escaping at every opportunity.  Amazing to see a full grown sow wriggle through the tiniest hole.  They say tamworths are good at escaping, nothing on a mangalitsa.

For someone starting out with pigs my personal preference would be a Gloucester.  Easy gentle natured and not fast if they do escape, unlike the racehorse tamworths with whom we resort to the bike or car if they escape down the road.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: pigsatlesrues on October 21, 2007, 09:42:42 pm
Good evening all!

We are new to this forum and breed British Rare Breeds here in Normandy, France. We have Tammy's, Saddlebacks, and will be introducing a weaner female Old Spot in the New Year. We also have Vietnamese potbellies and Mangalitza's.
We have been increasing our numbers over the past 20 months with our 'in house' breeding programme to get to this stage where we are now in a postion to be able to sell our pork and bacon products to both English and French. One thing the English miss out here is a nice piece of bacon, English style sausages, and crackling on their joints! We are in the process of registering with the French authorities to provide these most important products in our area.
All of our pigs are friendly and adore being fussed and belly rubbed. If we had to choose then our personal preference would be the Tammy every time. They have such wonderful natures and personality and their meat is out of this world. We also enjoy the Tammy/Saddleback cross meat and find it a popular choice at spit roasts.
The French are frequent visitors to our small holding; Free range pigs are not a common site in France and the fact that our pigs can be handled just bowls them over. We have Swallow Belly Mangalitz's which are incredibly scarce here. We only know of one other family in Brittany who have the family group that ours are from. We are in the process of importing from Austria some Reds and Blonds into France and unrelated Swallow Bellies, and with our friends hope to increase their numbers and encourage others to be interested. The French call them Chien Cochon (dog pigs) because they think they look like dogs!!
I adore the potbelly meat - I think it has a taste and texture somewhere between lamb and pork. We have just processed a Potbelly/Saddleback cross (accidental mating not to be encouraged!),  so will be interested to see if this changes the meat significantly. The saddleback/potbellies look very lovely I have to say! We have a Potbelly/Mangalitza cross litter due soon, so again, an interesting combination and since we find that no one else wants to buy anything to do with potbelly it forms a main part of our diet which suits us because we love it!



Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Hilarysmum on October 22, 2007, 08:05:14 am
Hello PigsatlaRues,
We used to have swallowbellied mangalitsas, very hairy.  Our French farmer neighbour and his wife stopped at their paddock and were over heard to say, 

"No they are not sheep ...?????  "  Our postman thought they were dogs.

Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Rosemary on October 22, 2007, 01:45:07 pm
I cannot imagine what our local abbatoir would say if we rolled up with Mangalitzas - they do enough moaning about the hair on Tamworths.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: carl on October 22, 2007, 02:32:40 pm
I have just started out with pigs. We have just got three g.o.s. weaners,now 11 weeks old. so far so good. they are no trouble at all. I would not like to see how tamworths root if these three babies are anything to go by. we joke about escape tunnels as the pile into the ground. they are very friendly, and will roll over for a tickle. two of these will go for meat and the better of the gilts will be bred. I would like to look at other breeds as time progesses.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Hilarysmum on October 22, 2007, 08:06:26 pm
Hi Carl thats the fun of pigs, each breed being different, both in character and flavour.  Its not the tamworth digging that causes problems at ours, its the speed with which they can run when they are out. 
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Judith on October 26, 2007, 08:52:35 am
 
Thank you everyone for your advice, it has been much appreciated.  It looks like Tamworths are the overall favourite, especially as they are described as excellent rooters.  We have an acre of brambles etc to clear but if the pigs will enjoy doing it for us, who am I to deny them their pleasure?  Now all I have to do is to find the time and cash to set it all up!  Also, I think that we have to register with a vet before we can keep pigs.  Can anyone enlighten me please?  I have been reading the DEFRA booklet about keeping pigs and it is full of horrific things like tail docking, nose rings, teeth grinding (Aaarrgh! And me a dental phobic!) etc but I think that the information is mainly for people who want to have a pig unit.  There was only about a page and a half devoted to keeping pigs in a holistic way.  All we want to do is to have a couple of weaners for meat and for them to have a short but happy life before they end up on a plate.  Are these things really necessary?  Please help!

Judith
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: pigsatlesrues on October 26, 2007, 11:23:31 am
Judith

You most deffinately do not need to dock tails or cut teeth. This is a horrible practice done on intensive farms. Here in France it is common practice in these types of farms, and to us a disgusting and inhumane practice.

Just enjoy your pigs!! If they are for your own consumption I am not even sure you even need to tag them. Certainly in our case, we only need to tag our breeding stock and all pigs destined for meat do not need tags whilst growing but do need to be tatooed prior to going to the abatoir. You would need to check the rules about taking your pigs to the abatoir in UK. Not sure of the rules there but DEPRA would be able to adivise you.

Your choice of Tamworth is an excellent one. We love our Tammy's and infact bought our first one, Vannessa from Hillarysmum along with Laura our Saddleback. They have the most wonderful temperaments - you wont regret it!

Be careful about feeding though. You would be amazed how many people over feed their pigs and ultimately waste their money because inevitably excess food will turn to fat and an unhealthy pig.  I have seen pigs with as much as three inches plus of fat once processed.  We rehomed a 4 year old Tamworth who much loved by her previous family was so fat she could hardly walk, and wheezed when she breathed. It has taken us months to get her into shape and she is now a different pig altogether. Our problem now is that after all this time she still hasn't come into season and if she doesn't then we have a difficult choice to make about her.

At this time of year there is an abundance of fruits and nuts which along side their staple diet will keep your pigs contented and ultimately give you the best meat. Always good to get your weaners early spring and grow them through the year when they can get the best of all natures fayre. Most of the people who come to us for weaners come between end March to beginning of May and usually plan to slaughter around end November beginning of December.

One thing to remember though when you reach this time is that your pigs will be very good friends/close family and it would be devistating for them if having two pigs you only slaughter one, leaving one for later. Do them at the same time? it is much kinder. If you went for three weaners then kill one and do two later.
Tamworths are slow growers,and benifit from that,  and infact will still give you perfect meat as old as 18 months old. Hiliarysmum might correct me there!

I will look forward to reading how you get on!

Kate
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Rosemary on October 26, 2007, 04:13:23 pm
Absolutely agree about the feeding. We've just got our Tamworths back from the butcher and they are the leanest we're managed. When we went on our Pig Paradise course, we were told "1lb per month of age per day up to a maximum of 6lb per day" (except for lactating sows). The chap weighed it out 6lb and another couple gasped and said they had fed their Saddlebacks about twice that - and had about 3" of back fat on the carcase. It's just money wasted.

I also agree about the slaughter policy - we always send ours together. They are much less stressed than if they are separated.

We don't dock or cut teeth, or tag. We mark the pigs for slaughter only.

Enjoy your Tamworths!
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Hilarysmum on October 27, 2007, 10:42:52 am
Friends have just "done" an 18 month old tamworth working boar.  I would not recommend leaving a boar to this age nor using a working boar, for them it was an experiment.  The meat was superb.  No boar taint even on the stmoach area which they baconed.  The chops were huge, 1 filled a large frying pan, took me two days to eat although OH managed to eat one at a sitting.  The meat was not as tender when first tried as it would have been on a younger pig, but oddly after being frozen, thawed and then cooked the joints and chops were really tender.  None of the meat was tough.  He was free range, fed about 2 kilos a day of nuts plus a variety of fruit, veg and bread.  He had about 1.5 " back fat although thats an estimate I did not measure it. 

We send our tammy males at around 8 months  (80+ k dw), females around 1 year old, they make good baconers then.  We never, ever get much fat on ours.  We feed 2 kilos pig nuts at 16% protein per day at 4 months onwards and adlib massive amounts of fruit and veg, plus of course the generous donations of acorns and assorted nuts grown by all our neighbours.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Judith on October 28, 2007, 10:02:31 am
Hi All

Thank you so much for the advice - I cannot tell you how helpful it is as we have so much to learn, it is all quite overwhelming.  Can anyone please suggest an "Idiot's Guide" book about keeping pigs organically?  Nothing too technical to start with - we just want to have a couple of healthy, happy pigs.

Judith
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Rosemary on October 28, 2007, 11:01:01 am
Try Carol Harris's book called... um, I've loaned it to someone and can't remember the title - "Traditional Pigkeeping" or similar. You'll find it on Amazon. There are photos of our happy pigs in it, so we're a wee bit biased, but it is a good book.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: welshdragon on October 28, 2007, 08:20:15 pm
Hi piggie keepers.
We have gone back into owning pigs after a gap of 5 years or so. We had so much excess produce from our hydroponic set up that we decided to get a couple of "waste disposal units". We bought in a couple of Oxford Sandy and Black weaners and then a couple of weeks later bought a couple of weaners of mixed parentage. We are against nose ringing so have to put up with our fields being ploughed by piggy noses. When they tear off the grass turf and soil we collect it up,put it in old builders bags that contain a ton and then leave it over winter. In the spring we plant spuds in them and they certainly produce well. The pigs come into the barn at night for feeding and general checkover and are let out in the morning. We clean their stalls out once a week and the   manure and straw get bedded down in an old greenhouse for growing beans and one section for mushroom cultivation. The cycle of country living that is sadly being eroded by incursion of bureaucratic nonsense and imbecilic regulation.
Just my little moan
Welshdragon.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Malc on October 29, 2007, 10:53:30 am
Carol Harris's book is very good and has loads of relevant advice, but for day-to-day I prefer Andy Case's Starting With Pigs. It has less detail, but all the really important stuff is in there and it's a more manageable size.

As far as what breed - my limited experience would steer me away from Tamworths as a first pig - too skittish, fast and likely to escape. I'm keener on Large Blacks and Saddlebacks. But it really is a matter of taste. As with any rare breed animal, I find keepers are almost evangelical in their support of their breed.

Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: pigsatlesrues on October 29, 2007, 11:53:54 am
I would have to disagree with Malc regarding his comments about Tamworths.

 If there was ever a laid back pig it has to be the Tammy. Our worst nightmare is Laura our Saddleback who will crash any fence at the sight of a bucket and regularly nips my bum. Our Saddleback/Tamworth Crosses all take after their Tammy side and love nothing better than their head on my lap havng their ears tickled, or good old fashioned belly rubs. I think if you spend time with any pig you will reap the rewards. If you show them ongoing affection then they will come looking for it.

For someone daunted by size perhaps, then the Tammy does get big that is true, but if you are only keeping your pigs for meat then you will make your choice on final size when the time comes for processing.

For breeding purposes if you raise your pig from a weaner then the relationship will develop and the trust and affection will grow and you wont notice their size as they grow because you will be with them everyday.

For someone who really does prefer a smaller pig then the GOS is a good choice. Not so big, excellent meat and a wonderful nature if you spend the time developing a relationship with them.

We bought in Laura Saddleback and Vanessa Tamworth as our first pigs aged around 2 years old, both in pig to a Tamworth boar. We kept two from each litter to increase our breeding stock and later bought in unrelated boars, one of each type.

We have a wonderful relationship with those two first pigs despite Laura's quirky habits!, but both came from a very loving environment and although we pet them and they will feed from our hands, we are very respectful of them especially when they have young. When we inspect their babies during the first week of their life, the mums will always have their head in a bucket of food to distract her from our visit.
Now their daughters have recently had first their litters and the difference in the relationship with that four is quite different to the one we have with their mums. Because we have been there at the birth and raised them from day one, they will allow us to sit with their babies, handle them, and the mums will sit with us while we are handling their young, getting tickles and rubs at the same time. It just goes to show what a difference it makes giving the time and affection to your pig from day one. It is a wonderful experience it really is!

Finally I would suggest that when making your choice of pig, make time to have a couple of visits to the place you intend to buy from. See how they handle their pigs, particularly the parents, and if the parents' needs are being met.  If the parents are friendly and contented then you can be pretty confident that the young will be contented as well and easy for you to handle and form a relationship with.  If buying an older pig, then the temperament is very very important and my point above will deffintately apply. It would not be impossible to improve the temperament of an older more difficult pig, but by their sheer size, it is not something I would recommend to a novice.

These of course are only my opinions and not intended to offended anyone. Everyone has a different point of view, and that is the benifit of a forum like this one, to glean info from lots of people and form opinions of your own and most deffinately learn new things along the way.

Kate
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Malc on October 30, 2007, 09:20:49 am
Interesting to read Kate's comments. I reckon that just goes to show it probably doesn't matter what breed, as long as they are healthy and from a reliable source you can't go too far wrong. Pigs, I suspect, are as diverse as humans, dogs, cats and so on and personality maqy have as big a bearing on their behaviour as their breed.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Judith on November 05, 2007, 07:55:02 pm
Hi all

Thank you for the advice re the books.  Both have been ordered and we hope to have them within the next few days.  I have been avidly reading all the comments but think that until we have read and digested the information in the books it will still all be a bit unclear.  Two things occur to me though.  We have John Seymour's New Complete Book of Self Sufficiency.   In it he advocates keeping a swill bucket, putting the scrapings from plates into it etc and feeding the pigs from that (along with other  pig food).  We thought that this was not permitted but the book is not that old, so we are a bit unsure.  The other thing is that when considering the size of the ark, we are told in the magazine adverts that they will hold x number of weaners or porkers.  Can any of you please tell me the difference between a weaner and a porker?  I would have thought that weaner is self explanatory but we are not sure what a porker is.  However, we thought that either a traditional ark of 8' 6" by 8' 2"  or the plastic Carberry ark at 7' 6" x 7' 6" would be OK for 2 weaners.  As usual, any help/advice will be gratefully received.

Judith
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: carl on November 06, 2007, 09:32:12 am
although seymour has a lot to say, it is quite an old book that has been reprinted. go to the defra site and download their "a guide for new keepers" pigs document. it has good advise plus all the relevant regulations on feed. there is also a document called "feeding catering waste to farmed animals is illegal".which includes farm animals kept as pets. what to spend on pig arks is pretty much like buying anything, you pay your money and find out with time if you spent wisely. i have two arks, one splendid bought ark 8 x 6 which was from the traditional pig ark company, and is perfect for my 3 14 week olds to grow into, it was a wee bit expensive but came deliverey included by the nice chap who built it.so actually was cheaper than the carberry. the other is home made and a bit over engineered, but is @ 8 x 4 and is waiting to house two more weaners @ the same age. i have to say though that they are both very cosy once straw is added. i suppose that size wise you have to allow for what size they grow to etc.
there is also yet another defra publication called " the code of recommendations for the welfare of livestock"  " pigs". there seems to be such a lot to read and absorb before taking on livestock, but once you start practising and it becomes secand nature it is very rewarding. my little pigs are such fun, and quite mischevious. they are also quite friendly and really enjoy a good tickle. there is also a lot of interest from friends and neighbours regarding the end product. so it's a win win situation.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Rosemary on November 06, 2007, 09:08:07 pm
We bought our ark from Pig Paradise - it wasn't cheap, but it has a nice wooden floor and is nice and warm, but well ventilated. We've had it 4 years and it's pretty much like new. It also looks OK and since I can see it from the dining room window, that matters!

The floor area is about 7x4 and housed three pigs to slaughter comfortably (well, no-one had to sleep outside). The good thing about it is tat it has a door at either end and we've got it sited in the fence between our two pig pens so by opening and closing each door we can restrict them to one or other of the pens.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Hilarysmum on November 07, 2007, 08:04:06 am
Judith, I think a weaner is a piglet just taken from mum anything from 3 weeks old (commercial unit) to 12 weeks old, outdoor free range traditional.  Or anything in between.

A porker I think is a pig around 6 months old, or around 50 - 60 k in weight. 

I would think the arc you are looking at would be more than big enough for 2 weaners growing into porkers and even on to baconers (which I think are around 9 months old and around 98 k ).
HM

Please anyone correct me if this is not correct.....
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Malc on November 08, 2007, 12:59:45 pm
Interesting to read the comments about Seymour. It's a great book for the coffee table, there's a lot of good advice, particularly about crops and general organisation. But there's some pretty outdated and even duff advice.

A friend who has been running a smallholding for many years said that Seymour was all very well if the day could be extended to 37 hours. She also pointed out that he makes his living not from self-suffienciency, but from running courses at his farm in Ireland. Draw your own conclusions.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Rosemary on November 08, 2007, 08:38:03 pm
I'd agree with Malc - it's quite an inspirational book, but not awfully practical - and most of us aren't looking to knit our own knickers anyway.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Hilarysmum on November 09, 2007, 11:51:14 am
 :D :D :D  Wolley knickers  ;D ; ;D
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Pebbles on November 28, 2007, 06:52:30 pm
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to announce that we are now the proud owners of two (unregistered) Oxford Sandy & Blacks. Pinky & Perky!  :D

We collected them on Saturday - they are gorgeous and have settled in very quickly to their new 'outdoor' life. We spent two weeks building them a palace of an ark during our spare time. It is over 8' square and we designed it (ok, MB designed it) to be built in sections and assembled and bolted together on site. I am really so pleased with the results - stained green and with a felt roof (pics to follow - when I work out how!) I think it will probably last longer than your average Barratt home!

A couple of questions though.

We bought 'pig feed' from the cattle auction and I'm just not very impressed with it. It looks like little dried out chipolatas, which very quickly turn to an unappetising mush on contact with the smallest amount of moisture. The pigs seem to love anything they can pick up and 'crunch'. What dry feed do you use/ recommend? I have read that it is relatively easy to change their diet when they're young, but near impossible when they're older. We have tried them on apples and cooked potatoes which they love - they won't go near cabbage?

What 'toys' do you give them to keep them happy and occupied? Don't laugh! I am going to buy them a football and they currently have a big orange traffic cone which I keep rolling about on it's side and when I turn my back they neatly stand it up and walk away from it  :-\

Any other 'must do's/ must haves' would be greatly appreciated. I have already anticipated you telling me not to name them  ;) At the moment it's a 'suck it and see' excercise - we're undecided whether or not to fatten up and butcher or breed from them.

The chap who sold them to us told us about a couple who gave up good jobs last year to become pig farmers full time. They went out and bought an assortment of 20 Tamworths and now have (I believe) about 70, possibly more. They have realised it's not as easy as they imagined and that demand for their Tammies is just not there - so many of them are now being sold. I'm so tempted!!! Maybe I should be learning from their mistake though rather than following their example?

They are such gorgeous little creatures. I so enjoy going to feed them in the morning and playing 'don't run away I won't hurt you!'  :D and my, how they love apples! MB does the bedtime shift and calls me at work to tell me what they're up to.

Does this happy feeling ever subside?

Pebbles
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Rosemary on November 28, 2007, 07:30:47 pm
Hi, Pebbles

We feed ours Allan and Page Rare and Traditional Breeds Weaner / Finisher pellets - each day, each pig gets 1lb for each month of age up to 6lb per day, split into two feeds and the snak-a-ball. Weigh it and don't be tempted to feed more - if you're feeding a lot of other stuff like potatoes, cut back on the pellets. They will always look and sound like they are starving to death!! If you feed too much, they'll just get fat. The Allen and Page stuff is GM free but not organic. It's never on the ground for more than a few minutes - we were told that they should clean up in 20 minutes or they are being overfed.

Our pigs have a snak-a-ball - there might be video on the site of them playing with it. It's a horse toy - put in pellets and as they push the ball, the pellets fall out one or two at a time. All ours have loved it - makes mealtimes last longer too. Not good in wet weather though - it gets full of mud and inevitably gets stuck in the wallow!

I was like you with our first weaners - I spent hours playing with them and watching them - I don't do it now. Enjoy the novelty.
Title: Re: What breed pigs?
Post by: Malc on November 30, 2007, 12:51:46 pm
The 20-minute rule seems to be just right. My weaners take about that long to clear up their food and there's never anything left.
They get a 50/50mix of sow/weaner pencils and barley (supplied by a local farm) in the morning and about 3/4lb of potatoes with blanched veg scraps in the evening.
They are kept indoors now as the wind and rain is harsh here on Orkney, but they have loads of space and some big stones and a tyre to play with and I throw in a couple of large wedges of turf twice a day which they enjoy ripping apart and munching their way through. The soil also makes sure they are not iron-deficient.