[plumseverywhere]

Good morning  

Am finding myself getting a bit stressed at the moment about taking one of my girls to a billy at some point soon so thought I shoudl come here and ask for some friendly advice.
Now that I am making goats milk soap and the business seems to really be taking off, its important that I have a good supply of my own goats milk. Our current milking girl kidded a year ago so my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong?) is that she might go on to produce milk another year or so?
our other girl is a year old - a saanenX with horns. does this mean that she would need a billy also with horns? (I'm thinking of the premise of not mixing horned with unhorned and whether this counts more with mating rather than breeding lines as I know she should have been disbudded but they didnt' for wathever reason)
is she too young? just right? was thinking of mating in autumn time when she would be about 14 or 15 months old.

the books either freak me out totally or make it sound TOO easy - so I'm here to ask for advice from my reliable old source!!!

thanks in advance
  

[Roxy]

I will tell you what I do, and have done for many years regarding breeding.  Unless the female was particularly well grown (and I have had one or two big youngsters)  I would always wait until they were 15-18 months before breeding.  If you are taking your female to a good goat owner, it is more than likely they will want to serve her in hand  i.e.  supervise the mating rather than just you leave your nanny and let her run with the billy.  If this is the case, they will  ask you to bring the female as soon as she is definitely in season.  She will take you, once she gets a whiff of the billy ......so hold on to your rope   They will bring the billy out to the female, let him sniff her, and if she is definitely in season, he will be there.  Its very quick, blink and you will miss it!!  Doing it this way, minimises the risk of any damage to your goat with horns or otherwise.
So,  the question of who has horns does not really matter.

If you let your female run with the billy and leave her there, then there is the issue of horns hurting another goat.  Personally, as she is young, and its her first mating, I would opt to have her served under supervision.  Once done, you take her home and wait three weeks - and be prepared for the smell to linger on everything.  Watch carefully for signs of coming in season again, if she does, the billy owner will hopefully give you a free go this time!!

I would definitely take your female to the billy in the Autumn she will be big enough to cope.

Many years ago, when I took my first female goat to the billy, she was only 15 months old, and the most enormous British Sanaan male came out of his stable......He was about three times the size of poor Penny, and I was certain his weight would kill her, but it didn't and the resulting kids were the enormous ones mentioned above, who matured very quickly.

As to your current milker, some do milk through, although they will never milk as good that second year, especially during the winter months, so I would not expect gallons of milk.

[plumseverywhere]

Ah Roxy, thank you so much for taking the time to give me such a brilliant reply  I really appreciate it.

I will then take my saanenx to a billy this autumn (ooh how exciting!!) and will ensure a supervised mate.  now I just need to find a willing billy!

[Roxy]

Oh, I can guarantee the billy will be willing   And then a 5 month wait for the pitter patter of tiny hooves.

[Roxy]

I have had no end of phone calls wanting to buy Paddy who I sold.  All the people were finding it hard to find the larger sized billy goats to use, and were now trying to buy.

Paddy went over to the Midlands - maybe he is near you   These two female kids by him, which I have retained, are smashing girls.

If you are confident at handling a billy goat, maybe someone will loan you one?  How big is the goat you intend to breed from, and what breed of billy were thinking of using?

Er ....you are in the Midlands, I think?!!

[plumseverywhere]

yes, we are in the Midlands - worcestershire    I think I better take her to a billy otherwise I will have 2 pregnant girls and might be a bit too much to handle!
the goat I intend to breed from is saanen cross - she's sort of labrador sized?  not sure what kind of billy, as she's is already a X-breed.

[little blue]

just to add.. our toggenburg was mated to a Bagot billy - about the smallest, not-pygmy-sized breed you can get.. and baby seems huge!
the billy's owner commented in it, she keeps them pure bred, so is used to Bagot kids.

as a first kidder, she had just the one, and seems to have an extra long pregnancy (excluding the fact that I can't count to 150 accurately!!)  which might account for it.

so what I'm saying is, dont go for the biggest billy you can find... your goat wont thank you for it!!   

[Roxy]

Even a pygmy billy is quite large and stocky  Our Bobby is probably not far off the same size as your female.  Paddy was a lot bigger than Jasmine, but she had two normal sized kids.  Granted, they are going to be bigger than her.  So long as you don't put an enormous billy on a pygmy female, there is not a problem.

We have crossed the pygmy billy with a sanaan x and  got quite large kids, then really small pygmy kids out of the same mating.  And completely different colours too.

[Anke]

If you take your goat to anyone with a registered billy, they will want to see a CAE certifictae. This is a bloodtest which ascertains if goat carries this virus. It's a longterm, slow disease, similar to MV in sheep. I think it's very rare in the UK, but most people test whenever the goat goes away for service (and the male should have one too). If you take your goat to the vet he can quickly take a blood sample and send it off, mine cost about £10 if I remember correctly. The certificate is valid for 12 months and also covers the kids for their first year.

If you don't go to pedigree billy you might not need it.

I sponged my goats last year, as with 13 days standstill here in Scotland it is almost impossible to organise kiddings of more than one goat ( to different billies and all in the same month and prior to lambing...). It worked very well, and my two kidded within three days of each other. Again the vet inserted the sponges, and I took them out 12 - 15 days later, and within 36 hours both were in season! Both held service too. (But it might have just been beginners luck...)

[Roxy]

Thankfully we are only on the 6 day standstill here, or as the animal health man told me 7 really.

[plumseverywhere]

Really daft question alert (!)  what is sponging? is it a means of ensuring a doe is in season? sorry, said it was daft!! tried to google first to avoid embarrassment lol!!

[ballingall]

Sponging, is what it says! It is a sponge which has hormonal treatment on it (don't know exactly how they apply it to the sponge), the sponge is then inserted into the goats vagina (a bit like a pressary I suppose). Leave it in for 10 days, take it out, the hormones work and hey presto the goat will be in season within 24-36 hours. The sponge has a cotton thread attached to it, which is what you use to pull out the sponge. Sponges come in packs of 25 I think, but if you approach your vet in autumn, he may well have an open pack anyway and let you have just one or two at just the cost for an individual sponge.

The only thing is, sometimes with a young goat that has not kidded, they are sometimes hard to sponge. But it does work, and it is a good way of ensuring that your goats come in season when you want.


Beth

[plumseverywhere]

Ah thanks Beth 

another question - what are the options with AI? is this something the vet will do?

[ballingall]

Your vet should be qualified to carry out AI, so yes he should be able to. I would check with him though- I don't know if all vets have all the necessary equipment or not. There are several goatkeepers who are qualified to do it as well- might be an idea to ask at your local goat club. Remember the success rate for AI in goats is not all that good yet. A friend of mine had a goat AI'd 2 years ago, it was hugely successful and he got triplet females. He tried it the next year, on 2 goats, and neither of them held, despite 2 attempts on one of them.

I believe that laparoscopic AI has a better success rate, but I don't know who would do it your area- probably not your vet. We have friends who live in County Durham, and they come up to Edinburgh to get it done.


Beth

[plumseverywhere]

Thank you Beth 

I think I'm preferring the sound of 'the real thing' now, AI sounds too invasive with not the best return. I might have a word with Roxy about her pygmy Billy I think!!  our little Saanen isn't too tall so he shoudln't need the step ladder ( I hope!)