[ZEddie]

Hi
we are new to lambs, we normally have rescues from 5 months old onwards, broken legged, 3 legged you name it we have it.  5 weeks ago we took on twins (from triplets) who have been on bottles.  At just over 5 weeks old they are now on twice a day drinking around 750ml per sitting, out during the day in grass paddock (since 2 weeks old) and back in at night. ewe lamb eats creep feed, wether doesn't eat it, he had joint ill but is now is all better.  Both seem happy with our other sheep, and very happy when they are in their paddock on their own.  All seems fine with us, until his nibs decides to eat something not quite right, and ears are down frothy mouth, trip to the vet suspects poisoning or eaten something he should not have.  So jabs later of penicillin etc and he recovered in about 48 hours.

Today was all fine and after breakfast they went running into their paddock, and all ok all day.  The rain has been torrential at times, and we noticed him, ears down, looking miserable.  Get them back in their stable and he is frothing at the mouth, and very hot, refusing bottle.  Vet visit and penicillin, metacam and antibiotic 40.2 degrees so a very poorly lamb, and he vomits up green watery grassy mess, twice.

After reading "in the hills" post tea and charcoal is recommended for potential rhodi poisoning.  Not having charcoal I do a strong black tea with sugar and syringe it in him.  leave it a while then try again. Ears are still down and stomach is not distended at all, just still frothy... So we decide to make him a bottle of milk, put in bicarb of soda, and make it with the black tea mix. 

Over time this evening, his ears appear to be getting back to normal, but still not good, they shoot up when he sees us, then tries bottle, and back to blurbing, and hesitating.  He burps, and wants more, just for a second or two. then hesitates and burbles.  He hasn't lain down and wanders.  He is normally a greedy monster, but seems to be of a sensitive disposition ........ essentially what else can I do, it appears every 10days or so we have this episode .... Any views would be welcome.  Thank you so much.

Going to be a loooonnnng night

[bj_cardiff]

750ml in one sitting is a huge amount to give a lamb! I'd never feed more than 350 at a time - isn't the lamb bloating aftet that much? If you read the other cade lamb threads you'll see that it can quite dangerous to feed milk and allow access to creep and grass at the same time. Some lambs will be fine but greedy lambs can eat too much and then it can ferment with the milk and make them very ill (or kill them). The green froth makes me think this might be happening.

I'd drastically reduce the amount your feeding, either feed them 350ml four times a day or if thats not possible 350 twice a day. Be careful about their access to creep and grass too. They will always want a bottle, no matter how full of grass and creep they are.

BTW its not vomit, he's trying to cudd, but his rumen hasn't fully developed and is probably overfull.

[harmony]

If he doesn't want his bottle don't syringe it into him.

[twizzel]

Penicillin is an antibiotic and you shouldn't mix with other types of antibiotic (amoxicillin, oxytetracycline). Agree 750ml far too much in 1 feed, cut it down to 450 twice a day and  wean at 6 weeks. Wouldn't feed tea to a lamb either, a bit of bicarb and veg oil will get any bloat moving as will a tube into stomach and pressing on left side to release any gas. Lambs rumen and stomach are very sensitive, we didn't introduce grass until weaned off milk for a week or so. Grass, milk, creep is a recipe for bloat which sounds like this lamb has.

[shep53]

Well done for going to the vet twice and getting treatment , since  they think with the high temp and vomiting then it is poisoned then I assume you have searched all your land inside and outside the fence ( lambs like to nibble outside of the wire )            While I too think 750ml at one time is a lot  it depends on the size of the lamb

[ZEddie]

Hi,

thank you for all the comments and views, very informative.  The vet suggested the amount of milk,they were having a lot less and he suggested we up it.  he actually thought the mix of milk and grazing is good training, especially as they are no longer with mum, and have latched on to the other sheep.  it appears it might have been ragwort outside the fence. but penicillin and Ribena water together with watered down creep feed to a drink seem to have worked.  Fingers crossed that is.  Thank you for the advice really appreciated, used to 5 month old monsters, and first time with 4 day old lambs, but we have a kind of rescue base here, and do not reject cries of help.  Will give the views some serious thought.  thank you again.

[ZEddie]

just a thought.... do you ever feed your cades cold milk solution with a teaspoon of olive oil in? they are large lambs incidentally, but thinking of a new maintenance program for him now, to keep off any gasiness and any potential problems.  thank you again

[SallyintNorth]

Lambs need to be eating grass, hay or straw from the first week in order for the rumen to develop properly.

i will link again to JayKay's post on lambs' stomachs, feeding, bloat etc.  linky

[Old Shep]

Grass, milk, creep is a recipe for bloat which sounds like this lamb has.
[/quote


The mix of grass milk and creep does well for thousands of lambs in this country.

[twizzel]

In terms of pet lambs though we have always found them prone to bloat due to the volume of milk they ingest per feed, and grass mixed with milk and creep can make them more prone to bloat. Kept in on ad lib milk, hay and creep, weaned at 6 weeks then introduced to grass slowly once the milk is out of the equation.

[bj_cardiff]

Did your vet say to up his feed or to feed more? I would feed 4 times a day and aim to feed around 1.5 litres a day. If your vet suggested 750ml at a time I can only think that their a small animal vet with very little experience of sheep. If you ask any person experienced with cade lambs I don't think you'll find any that would agree with the vets advice on that one.

I can see what 'old shep' means and my cade lambs are on a mix of milk, grass and creep - but, occasionally one lamb will be particularly greedy and that system doesn't suit them.

[Marches Farmer]

Surely the best regime is to replicate as closely as possible the way lambs develop naturally, which is small, frequent feeds from their dam and starting to nibble grass or hay around the second week of life.

[shep53]

Did your vet say to up his feed or to feed more? I would feed 4 times a day and aim to feed around 1.5 litres a day. If your vet suggested 750ml at a time I can only think that their a small animal vet with very little experience of sheep. If you ask any person experienced with cade lambs I don't think you'll find any that would agree with the vets advice on that one.

I can see what 'old shep' means and my cade lambs are on a mix of milk, grass and creep - but, occasionally one lamb will be particularly greedy and that system doesn't suit them.

   If ZEddie  asks and pays for the vets advice then surely it should be acted upon ,  in 50+yrs  I have never fed lambs of that age more than twice per day and since the cold milk goes into  a bucket with teats  at the amount they will drink in a minute  or two then some of the larger x lambs may easily consume 750 ml plus creep and grass

[farmers wife]

I think too many people are bottle feeding and lambs should be on cold ad-lib.  I spend a couple of days on the bottle then they go on the bucket. I can get them on the bucket straight away sometimes.


You get fermentation in the gut feeding too much milk and creep (evidence that soya in creep makes it worse).  Feeding warm milk can make more trouble.


There is a condition called redgut which is caused by the stomach changing its shape. Its out of sync not sure if this is reversible.   


My cades are still in the pen but have straw, hay, water, seaweed meal, milk and water.  They are 5 weeks so will be taken away from milk and weaned at the weekend. They will go on grass first if I can find a safe haven.  There will be no further milk for them once on grass.  I will still feed a small amount of nuts but this will go to nothing as they are pasture raised sheep.


Feeding from the bottle makes them gorge its not natural. 

[farmers wife]

Foaming mouth is bloat.  Veg oil, bicarb and water mixed but not sure if you can sort this.  I agree the vet is talking utter nonsense.  The lambs should be taking in grass, straw and nuts now and milk as a back up.  The gasses are building up the poor chap must be feeling terrible.  Redgut also gives that swollen belly.