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Author Topic: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs  (Read 6167 times)

Dans

  • Joined Jun 2012
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When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« on: May 11, 2017, 10:02:59 pm »
Ok I only seem to be coming here with questions these past few days. Thank you all for your patience with me.

Our second ewe lambed twins yesterday night. It didn't go very well. I ended up having to help her out as the lamb just wasn't coming, I had a vet on the phone who thought it was the right course of action but I still wonder if she would have managed in the end without my help. End result of two living ewe lambs though.

The thing is I'm not sure if she is a 'good' mum or not. With our first ewe to lamb she barely moved away from the lamb at all and if she did and it bleeted she would start calling to it and go back to it. She was really attentive, even when we were offering ewe nuts. We give the ewe and lamb(s) the run of the polytunnel during the day as it gets warm and there is access to a hurdled off outside bit to cool off. This ewe will happily walk away from her lambs, they bleet a bit and she makes a sound to them but doesn't go straight towards them, if they bleet a bit more she will stop what she is eating and go to them, but it takes a lot longer than with the previous ewe. (The previous ewe has started running back and forth along the fence calling to the twin lambs when they start bleeting and mum ignores).

Is this a usual mum behaviour or is she not as bonded with them? I'm keen to get her out on grass to help her with her milk production but I'm not sure about letting out in the field while she is still so blase about her lambs. Would keeping her in help or is this just how it will be? One of them is a fair bit smaller than the other (2.5 and 2kg) and seems to be developing a bit slower (bigger one was running about whilst the smaller was still shakey on her feet) but they both seem to be moving well now.

Dans

Edited to add that we have a pair of breeding crows living by the field that have been very interested at both lambings and are very active in littering our land with dead things and rubbish. I'm a little worried about them with lambs that aren't being mothered as attentively.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 10:05:42 pm by Dans »
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twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 10:35:50 pm »
I would pen her up for a couple of days so she really bonds with them. Are these her first lambs? It can take first time mothers a bit more time than normal to bond. Either pen her up outside or inside but in a small area 6x6 is ideal. After a couple of days she should be bonded. If she's a really bad mother and doesn't look after her lambs properly I would cull her.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
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Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 10:38:26 pm »
Is she short of milk for them?  If not, from the way it sounds, I think I'd pen them in a small (4 hurdle) pen for a day or two.  It does sound as though she's not as bonded with them as would be ideal. 

Quite possibly the intervention at birthing interfered with the bonding a little, so she maybe is just going to need a little longer to bond properly with them. 

Or she could just be one of those mums.  I have a black Wensleydale is a very laid back mum.  Her lamb can often be found at the far end of the field.  If Quincy wants him she bellows for him, but she doesn't really go looking for him.  She was just the same last year, but did raise and is raising a perfectly good lamb.  In her case, the other ewes would chase any marauding corvids away, so Quincy's lackadaisical mothering style is unlikely to result in any misfortune.  :fc:

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Dans

  • Joined Jun 2012
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Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 10:56:20 pm »
Ok I think we'll do a compromise as I am worried that she is a bit short of milk as well. We have some ungrazed grass that is in the shade of the polytunnel. I'll pen them up there tomorrow so that she can get some good grass in her and boost production but the lambs can't wander far. The only thing is we are forecast a bit of rain tomorrow. They are her first lambs.

Watching the lambing camera footage today it does seem like one of the lambs is much more adventurous than the other. One stuck by her but the other kept wandering off. She would go for hay, realise she only had one lamb and go after the missing one, then go back to hay and repeat. We penned them up for the night and one just sat by where the hurdles had opened and bleeted to go back out.

Dans
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Fieldfare

  • Joined Feb 2011
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2017, 11:48:56 pm »
Hi Dans- in this case I would prob. keep her penned up for up to 4 days so the bond grows with the lambs and particularly to get the smaller one (ewe lamb?) a bit stronger (and also to reduce the likelihood of her trying to swap her lambs- which she may do if another of yours lambs soon). 2 or 3 days may do it- but only you will know that by your observations.  Although what you are prob. seeing is a normal difference in lambing care of the two ewes- so prob. nothing to worry about.  Give her add lib nuts, hay, water and minerals. They don't necessarily need grass. Sometimes the 2nd lamb does get stuck and dies (happened to one of mine this year where intervention should have been in 1st  30mins of 1st lamb) so it sounds like your intervention was spot on.
Don't worry about asking q's- and getting advice from vet on the phone is a good idea.

Special treatment for twins? I think very useful to pen these up with mum for a day or two longer than singles so both can run well. 1st night particularly can be a bit dodgy as more advanced lamb could drag mum away from 2nd leaving it vulnerable to foxes/badgers (happened to mine once)). Crows? possibly but not likely to be a problem to lambs (but will be looking for scraps of afterbirth). Can you post a photo for ID'ing? (You said they might ravens but in your location that is not likely?). If they are ravens then that would be a difft. matter and you would have to be more vigilant!




Dans

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Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 07:21:10 am »
Well she has chomped through about 1kg of nuts already this morning. Is it ok to keep offering at that rate, she was probably on a quarter of that prelambing.

Checked on the lambs and the smaller one (both ewes) is doing fine, full belly, big stretch etc. The larger one didn't stretch but wasn't hunched and did go over to mum for milk. After trying though she did look a little sunken. Will check again in an hour and if still a bit sunken I'll offer a bottle. I do now think that mum has milk but not much. The lambs seems to swap between teats so whoever gets to mum first may be drinking her dry.

Anything else I can do to boost milk production? This seems to be similiar to what we saw with our first lamb until mum went out onto grass, maybe more pronounced because there are two lambs. I offered some PSB leaves which she was interested in. We've got drizzle this afternoon but temperatures of 17/18C, would the lambs be ok in this. I could half cover a 4 hurdle pen and put them out on grass in that. We have two weeks now until the other two are due to lamb (both on the same day  :-\) so may increase their nut ration to boost milk a bit.

It was the first of the lambs (I assume the bigger) that was stuck, or appeared to me. The water bag appeared but then seemed to not break for about 45mins. Water was pouring from her but this sack remained protruding out. She seemed to get more and more agitated and whilst the first ewe to lamb picked a spot and stuck to it this one was moving all around the field. Then we got a foot and I thought brilliant but the foot remained for an hour going back in and coming out. The vet thought the lamb might not be presented right. We tried to pen her but she ended up running to the others and we got her in (was at dusk) had a feel and could feel mouth first then behind that the other foot. Didn't have to put my hand in at all, just to the second knuckle. Gave her a little while after that but still no movement despite her really pushing so vet said to pull. Lamb was very hard to pull (at least in my opinion but it's the first I've done) and it took me a while. I was worried it was dead but I heard it make a noise as I was pulling. Got the lamb out and her focus on it, looked up and saw the second lamb was already half out, 1 leg and the head up to the neck. No sign of second leg. Had a feel and the leg was bent under so brought it round and that lamb just dropped out.

They may well be crows but they just seem so huge. That may just be the townie in me but I'm also used to seeing crows in big groups, whereas this pair are the only ones around. They leave over winter, no sign of them at all, but come back each spring, I start noticing dead things in the sheep water, look up and sure enough they are there. This is a zoomed in mobile phone picture so not great but the best one I have of one of them. Crossing my fingers they are crows.

Dans

« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 07:26:33 am by Dans »
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twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 08:02:30 am »
No don't give her any more nuts- you risk acidosis if you feed more than 0.5kg per feed. When my ewes were in they had 400g 3 times a day first feed 7am last feed 10pm. Grass does help milk production but they need to be bonded before going out for grass. If it's raining keep lambs and ewe in for the day. Ewes should have enough milk for newborn lambs without grass really as the lambs don't really drink a huge amount in the first few days of life, if she can't feed both and you think she's struggling take one off and hand rear it. Peak milk production is when lambs are 3-4 weeks of age. 

bj_cardiff

  • Joined Feb 2017
  • Carmarthenshire
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2017, 09:01:29 am »
Keep them penned up for 2-3 days, then let them into a bigger enclosure to assess how she is with the lambs. They need time to bond. It takes some sheep a while to realise they have twins and they'll happily wonder off with one lamb and forget about the other.


harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2017, 09:11:13 am »
Have you tipped your ewe and checked her bag?

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2017, 11:57:25 am »
Just to say don't worry about asking all your questions Dan's,  if I can't answer, (and even if I can) I learn from other people's answers  :).

Old Shep

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • North Yorkshire
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2017, 11:59:14 am »
With your description of the birth it sounds as if the ewe had been on long enough and needed help. Sometimes they get stuck on the shoulders so a pull to one leg to fully extend then the other one makes the shoulders narrower, then pull both legs downwards if the ewe is standing.  So don't worry that you have affected the bonding, that's better than a dead lamb or ewe!

As said, don't overdo the nuts 500gms at once no more.  Pen them up, plenty of fresh water to encourage milk production, good hay or grass, then leave them to bond.... too much human presence may not help  :thumbsup:
Helen - (used to be just Shep).  Gordon Setters, Border Collies and chief lambing assistant to BigBennyShep.

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2017, 12:26:55 pm »
A normal carrion crow , Ravens are twice the size . Your doing fine and lambed your first sheep :thumbsup: all the advice is good . IT gets easier  :sheep:

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2017, 12:41:44 pm »
Our Soay vary in how they care for their lambs.

One of our ewes seems to barely notice whether or not her lambs are even with her!

Her lambs are often left under the hedge and she's off grazing or bleating for her with no response.

As they get a little older, her lambs usually end up following another of our ewes around. Same ewe each year!

She must do enough though because her lambs thrive and grow at the same rate as la!bs from the more attentive ewes.

YorkshireLass

  • Joined Mar 2010
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Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2017, 01:16:22 pm »
Is it possible that the less attentive ewe's time is better spent eating, to produce milk? Time spent searching for lambs is time not spent eating.
Just something that could be a factor.

Dans

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Re: When to let out a 'bad' mum and lambs
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2017, 01:29:42 pm »
Thank you all.

I think it was the shoulders. Vet said to pull one leg and then the other. Once that second foot was out and the leg straight it was a bit easier but still took some force. Probably didn't help that I was having to hold her still while she was standing.

I offered a bottle before I went back to bed (sick toddler as well so sleeping when she lies in!). It wasn't very successful. Are you meant to make a hole in the teat? I couldn't get anything out. It's a Ritchey one.

OH didn't get the message about leaving them in the pen today so gave them the run of the lambing area when he got up. Checked on the camera and they are moving as a family unit with mum trailing after them as the run up and down. I think they are doing better. I think you may be right Yorkshirelass, she is more attentive today with a full belly. We haven't checked her milk as I didn't want to stress her too much and already had to grab her to give her abs and painkiller. Plus when I tried checking the previous ewe I was rubbish despite her having milk. This is our 'wildest' ewe, always a pain to do anything with as she just will not be still.

I'll cut back on the nuts and let them out in the daytime tomorrow when it is dry. Glad to hear they are just crows.

Thank you all again so much. I think it is going to take me a while to learn all the variations of normal.

Dans
9 sheep, 24 chickens, 3 cats, a toddler and a baby on the way

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