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Author Topic: A few questions  (Read 4924 times)

ThomasR

  • Joined Jun 2014
  • Peebles
A few questions
« on: February 26, 2017, 02:46:40 pm »
So here we go, it was been a busy weekend.
QUESTION 1:
Yesterday all they sheep were penned up to be hepivac'd and by eye all seemed fine. The ewes are still a rough condition score of 3.5 - 4 and that is without extra feed however they will be lambing 6 weeks to the day so normally I would start feeding but not sure If I should start feeding them now, at the moment I've been giving the tups and ewe lambs so coarse mix with 18% protein (will explain in question 2 why so high in protein.) So they haven't been fed yet but the field is now very wet with the past week of snow and rain so I thought should I leave them another week or two before the feed starts? They have not been scanned!!!!!!

QUESTION 2:
So yesterday When the tups were in I noticed that the mature tups that finished work in December have started to Loose condition when I put my hand on them :o :o . So the back story with these is that a few weeks ago they were working then came out and were low in condition and were starting to loose condition. So I went to the vets and we had a post mortum done on a tup lamb that just wouldn't stop loosing weight and it turned out it was fluke. So we dosed all the animals for fluke 3 weeks ago. Problem Solved, or so I thought. So when I put my hand on them yesterday and they had lost more condition  I was mortified, The vets was closed but I rang a local farmer and he said to try a different fluke treatment and then we went up to him and picked the stuff up along with some pellets called (Ovi-trace, ewe bolus with copper) we gave this to the in-lamb ewes 6 weeks ago and it worked miracles. Anyway he said to give this to the tups as they could have a lack of copper, they have been given this along with the fluke today along with some endospec incase it was worms but there is no scouring. Anyway I was wondering if there is anything else that could be causing them to drop weight????

Question 3:
Kind of related to question 1, I was re-fluking the ewes today with the new stuff just incase it was an immunity to endofluke to stop them going down and I noticed that some of them are going a bit sore in one of their back legs. Is this just because they are carrying so much extra weight.

Question 4:
This relates back to question 2, Is there anything I can give the tups to help put condition back on? Just for reference for next time and for now.
Many thanks

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: A few questions
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 04:00:21 pm »
Since your ewes are fit you have 2 options either start 4 wks before lambing  and increase every week  ( stepped )              or start now   and feed the same amount right up to lambing ( flat rate ) .     If fluke affected them enough to loose condition  ( why the rams and not the ewes ?  different field before tupping ? ) then it will take a long time   (  takes 6wks on good grass to put on 1 condition score ) to put condition back , so be good to them . Copper deficiency needs looking into with blood test at some time in the future  .   Endofluke is a triclabendazole  fluke drench so the best for the job , I presume that you've used a closantel fluke drench  this time , but 3 wks after the first drench is   panicking  , if you think  triclabendazole doesn't work you need the vet to look in to this  but as I say your rams need plenty of good food and time .  The sore feet could be anything ?

ThomasR

  • Joined Jun 2014
  • Peebles
Re: A few questions
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 04:23:25 pm »
ok I think I will start 4 weeks before lambing.
The tups and ewes are in different field ans they only started to loose weight in december, aI moved the tups to a bigger field but even since then they have continued to go down in condition which is why I'm worried, If they remain where they were on the condition score then I wouldn't be so worried but I have also been feeding them 18% protein coarse mix.
The ewe lambs also started to go down in condition, they were a condition score 3.5 3 weeks ago and now they are seriously lower like a condition score 2.5 or 2. They were re fluked again yesterday. The ewes are the only ones that don't seem to be affected by weight loss and they are getting less feed than the tups which is why I'm concerned

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: A few questions
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2017, 05:30:10 pm »
Were the ewes /rams / ewe lambs in different fields in the autumn and do you think that some picked up fluke and the ewes not ( ditches .ponds , wet areas )        you need to  take poo samples to the vet and specifically ask for  fluke eggs and be prepared to start dosing for fluke  late summer /autumn this year .   I  assume the rams and ewe lambs have good grass or ad -lib hay plus the mix maybe 500 gm . You could ask the vet for blood samples to check cobolt/selenium/ copper deficiency

ThomasR

  • Joined Jun 2014
  • Peebles
Re: A few questions
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2017, 05:53:37 pm »
Thanks it sounds like I need to do that. The surprising thing is that the ewes are in the worst field with the most water, all the fields are pretty dry but the ones the ewes are in is definitely the worst. The rest are dry. I will need to go into see the vet and get some samples done, there are no ones that scour however the tups have started to become a bit softer

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: A few questions
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2017, 06:22:58 pm »
 :thumbsup: investigation is the only way your going to get answers so that you can make a plan

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: A few questions
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2017, 07:04:05 pm »
It's going to cost a bit but it'd be good to get on top of this right away, particularly if the weather where you are is harsh just now.  By the time you realize there's a problem the fluke damage to the liver is considerable.  Without the liver disposing of unwanted toxins, etc., in a timely manner the whole body will be under stress.

ThomasR

  • Joined Jun 2014
  • Peebles
Re: A few questions
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2017, 07:50:27 pm »
Ok so just checked the name of the stuff that I dosed them with this morning and it is Solantel Oral Suspension Fluke Drench for Sheep (was told another name for the same stuff is Flukiver). I will get them checked again but the PM a month back showed it to have some serious fluke so we dosed with Endofluke. If it is fluke should this second dose Kill it, if so how long will it take till they start to look better and brighter again. I'm giving them until friday to see some sort of Improvement (even if it just they look happier) before I bring them inside for a month or so to make sure they are all ok
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 07:55:59 pm by ThomasR »

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: A few questions
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2017, 08:20:36 pm »
Sorry but even though all the fluke may be dead its going to take weeks /months for any serious improvement , the liver takes time to recover  and sometimes  they don't . Bringing them inside will at least stop them using energy to keep warm

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: A few questions
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2017, 11:29:22 pm »
Thomas, yes, Solantel and Flukiver both have the same Active Ingredient (Closantel), which my vet told me as yet doesn't have widespread problems with drug resistance.  The AI in Endofluke is Triclabendazole, and according to SCOPS, some fluke are now becoming resistant to it.

Also from the same SCOPS guidance:

Quote
Triclabendazole (TCBZ) is widely used because it kills early immature fluke and historically has been highly effective when used correctly. It does, however, have to be partly metabolised by the liver before it can work properly. If the liver is already damaged through a high fluke burden or other concurrent disease this has the potential to reduce efficacy.

So if your sheep already had severe liver damage, could that have reduced the efficacy of the Endofluke I wonder?
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Buttermilk

  • Joined Jul 2014
Re: A few questions
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2017, 09:27:17 am »
A seriously damaged liver will have problems metabolising protein.

I have just recently had a post mortem done on a ram lamb from last year for the same reason.  Not only did it have liver fluke there was also a heavy worm burden due to the worms being resistant to ivermectin.  The rams have been stabled and dosed with Combinex, three weeks later we have a clear FEC.  It is going to take time to regain the lost condition though and the lambs from last year will never make the size that they would have done without the parasite problems.

My vet is getting back to me with a grazing/worming/flukeing plan for the coming year.

ThomasR

  • Joined Jun 2014
  • Peebles
Re: A few questions
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2017, 09:45:37 pm »
Thanks so brought one of the lambs ewe lambs that went down and it turns out it isn't fluke but in fact it was a lack of vitamin B1. Despite having all received a jag of combivit 3 weeks ago.
Anyway I have brought them into day after almost a foot of snow has fallen, I know not to house wet sheep but didn't really have a choice

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: A few questions
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 02:58:25 am »
Combivit gives an instant boost but if your land doesn't give all the minerals they need you may need to give regular mineral drenches.

The whole of the UK is deficient in copper, cobalt and selenium.  Some sheep are better at coping - Texels manage on very low copper, for instance, and can even get liver damage from being given too much copper.

Drenches with chelated minerals, or boluses which release slowly over time, will give a much longer-lasting effect than cheaper non-chelated drenches.  You can also give licks to allow them to get extra minerals - but I'd suspect that you may need to use a chelated drench once or twice a year as well. 

As others have said, if fluke has gone untreated for a period, the liver damage can be so extensive that it takes a very long time to recover, and/or never fully recovers.  And the impaired liver function can make it difficult to get an effective dose into them.  So going forward you will probably find it best to drench regularly for fluke whenever the beasties are active.  (Most usually autumn and winter, but some enough years the conditions mean they are active in summer - and not just a wet summer, either.  Keep an eye on the monthly NADIS parasite forecasts.)

Carrs Billington make up and sell fluke+mineral drenches, and worm+mineral and fluke,worm and mineral drenches, because it is so common in the north of England to need to give minerals regularly and to fluke regularly.  However, the chelated drenches are a better source of minerals if it suits your system to use them.  They have a good long shelf life too, and the premixed drenches are usually 6 months max.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

ThomasR

  • Joined Jun 2014
  • Peebles
Re: A few questions
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 10:11:56 pm »
Thanks yeah, They are in now and I will let them out in a few weeks, as long as they are ok in the shed. I will give another dose of combivit in a weeks or so.
In the past week they have had Hepvac, wormer, fluke, bolus and now combivit. Quite a lot but should be ok.
I'm hoping that with high quality hay and high protein coarse mix twice daily they should pick up fairly soon. With the combivit been given yesterday I did notice they were looking a bit happier but that could be any number of things that they have been given since saturday.
Do you know if the Carrs Billington Ovi-trace Bolus has Vitamin B1 in it?

Helen Wiltshire Horn

  • Joined Apr 2014
Re: A few questions
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 01:52:57 pm »
I had a similar issue with fluke in lambs last Autumn.  We suspected fluke and treated with Combinex which should kill all stages of fluke.  They continued to lose condition and a FEC revealed fluke again.  Vet can only surmise that they picked it up again shortly following the Combinex.  Desperately trying to put condition on them but despite hard feed twice a day some are still pretty thin.
Helen

 

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