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Author Topic: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)  (Read 7831 times)

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« on: December 08, 2016, 08:43:01 am »
Its taken a year for me to gain permission to extend my postage size barn. It will gain an 82% increase in size which sounds a lot but in actuality when you double the size of a stamp you just have a slightly bigger stamp. However it will mean I have a much more useable and saleable home.
The barn had some problems with the planners in the past and in particular one very biased planning officer in my opinion. During this application I asked for the planner to be changed due to a complaint in relation to her past decision making. That was refused so much for fresh eyes or impartiality.
I enlisted the help of a planning specialist and we went to war.
History I presented to the planning committee :-• This is the LPA argument for refusal http://idox.monmouthshire.gov.uk/WAM/doc/Report-615855.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=615855&appid=1001&location=VOLUME5&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1&sid=

This was my counter argument

The barn conversion was originally granted under the provisions of the 2006 Monmouthshire UDP (Policy H7).  It clearly states in that policy, that the criteria of the policy must have been “strictly applied”. One of the requirements of policy H7 (f) of the UDP, states that the building “must be capable of providing adequate living space”.
 
• There was no definition within UDP at that time to detail what would be deemed as “adequate living space”. However, under current policy H6, (Extension of rural dwellings), of the current Monmouthshire Local Development Plan (‘LDP’), there is an indication that the acceptable internal volume for modern living standards would be considered to be 250 cubic metres. As it currently stands, Beaulieu Barn stands at approximately 187 cubic metres.
 
• The argument of the LPA is that they do not accept the argument that the building is not of adequate living standards due to volume, but they give no indication as to what would be an acceptable volume apart from one particular case involving the development of a one bedroom flat in Monmouth town (as detailed in the planning officer committee papers), which in my view is not a comparable case.
 
• It should be noted at a preplanning site visit  Mr Craig O’Connor stated that in his view “ The property should never have been given full planning but rather granted planning as a holiday home”  He went further to say that if the matter went to appeal he would have difficulty in advancing the argument that the property was in fact of a reasonable size and not too small for modern living standards. His view is the opposite view being advanced by Jo Draper.
 
 
• The LPA argue that policy H6 of the existing LDP is aimed at ‘rural dwellings and new builds’, not ‘rural barn conversions’…  With that being the case, MCC’s argument is that policy H6 does not apply. However, on several occasions throughout the permission history of the barn, the conversion is described as tantamount to a new build. As such, with this being the case, because the building effectively has been a new build, it should fall within the parameters of policy H6 as a new dwelling, and not be disregarded. The argument cannot be put forward by the LPA to say that the barn is now unlawful because it should not have been a new build, because the building has been in place since 2008. Therefore the building would have protection and be deemed lawful by virtue of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 S.171(B)(1).
 
• Without wanting to be embroiled further into a long argument on planning policy, the key point is that the barn was too small for conversion at the time it was permitted. The decision made as a departure from planning policy.
 
The original extension of the agricultural building was in place for well over 20 years, and therefore the argument that it shouldn’t have been included on the proposals at that time is in our view, without merit. The agricultural extension should have been allowed to be included in the conversion at that time. If it had been included, the conversion would have fallen within an acceptable living volume limit. Subsequently, as it stands, it would seem to make sense to allow for the extension to bring the building up to the adequate standard.
 
It would seem that because the LPA removed the permitted development rights from property, (standard for barn conversions in an AONB), they know the applicant has no fall-back position if full planning is refused. The purpose of this condition is to allow the LPA to consider planning application more rigorously, rather than a householder being able to erect any extension within the parameters of the permitted development legislation which may be inappropriate within an AONB.
Therefore, their stance should not be to bluntly refuse any extension whatsoever even under full planning permission, which does not appear to be a fair way to apply the policy or the law.
 
The fair and reasonable approach would be to allow the consideration of an extension on a case by case basis taking into consideration all relevant material planning considerations. In this scenario, the LPA appear to have taken the approach of precluding the applicant from any possibility of an extension through full planning permission. They have not considered/mentioned the possibility of negotiating an appropriate design.
 
• The solution would be to allow the extension which would bring the building up to the acceptable living standards (acceptable volume) under full planning. Therefore, there would no longer be an argument to extend it further.
 
• Providing the LPA only grant planning permission on barns which can demonstrate an adequate size volume of at least 250 cubic metres, the permission wouldn’t set any precedent case.

• Pre application advice was taken from Monmouthshire County Council under reference MC/2015/ENQ/00827 prior to applying for the proposed extension. Within that advice, the delegated officer indicated, to quote;
 
“The original consent to convert the building to a residential use, was given consent as an exception to the rule”.
 
This shows that there was an acknowledged departure from the UDP policy at that time in granting permission for the re-development of a building, which was too small for full residential use.
 
Therefore, based on the other information set out herein, it reaffirms the point that because the development was permitted as a departure from LPA policy in 2006, a rectification to correct this issue should be granted now by permitting this current application.

This picture shows the extension coming out the side all matching and in keeping. They made the previous owner rip down the side extension and replace it with a poxy rendered lean-to.



This is what the smallholding looks like now. https://youtu.be/xYnHRAUMNss

For those that are interested the case pictures are located here

http://idox.monmouthshire.gov.uk/WAM/showCaseFile.do;jsessionid=2AFE3C40CF604B729F198F8A3163C915?action=show&appType=Planning&appNumber=DC/2016/00287

This is the video to the committee hearing. Interestingly the head planner lied / mislead the committee as the original extension was never illegal. I have now asked them to supply documentation that showed it was illegal and any informant notices to remove it as I know there are non. https://youtu.be/rAHO5nlVpRw

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 11:00:20 am »
Imo its not unusual to see planners lie, especially when things are not going their way.
Congratulations well done and deserved.
Think LPAs grind a lot of people down until they give up when they should continue

Video is great , how did you get Ariel shots drone?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 11:02:46 am by mart6 »

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 11:12:03 am »
Imo its not unusual to see planners lie, especially when things are not going their way.
Congratulations well done and deserved.
Think LPAs grind a lot of people down until they give up when they should continue

Video is great , how did you get Ariel shots drone?

It was a long fight and I was ready to go to appeal if necessary. Aerial shots taken with a drone.

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 02:07:31 pm »
Just read the whole lot :relief: Sounds like a very long process you had to go through, but I am glad that all came out well in the end :thumbsup:
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 04:31:40 pm »
Very long very stressful costly in applications & professional fees. Luckily I had a good planning consultant that worked on a flat fee.
Despite the stress its going to be a great project and hopefully make my dream home.

mojocafa

  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Angus
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 05:22:14 pm »
Well done you, was your consult a lady with the initials jf?

Your place looks fab!
pygmy goats, gsd, border collie, scots dumpys, cochins, araucanas, shetland ducks and geese,  marrans, and pea fowl in a pear tree.

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 05:59:38 pm »
Thank you no it was a he !

Rhea

  • Joined Mar 2015
  • Wye Valley
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 06:48:13 pm »
Well done, the place looks amazing!

We're just down the river from you and are having a trying time with the planners as we're near offas dyke, so it's great to hear a good news story at the moment.

I hope the project goes really well  :thumbsup:

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2016, 04:03:21 pm »
Well done, the place looks amazing!

We're just down the river from you and are having a trying time with the planners as we're near offas dyke, so it's great to hear a good news story at the moment.

I hope the project goes really well  :thumbsup:

Sent you a PM can highly recommend using a planning consultant to help with legal arguments.

cloddopper

  • Joined Jun 2013
  • South Wales .Carmarthenshire. SA18
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2016, 11:15:56 pm »
I'm so pleased & glad that you overcame the stupidity of the PO's in their ivory towers . 

With planners like that in our councils we don't need Russians & terrorists as enemies to keep the country down ..

 Had a friend with a large haulage yard able to hold 40 or so hooked up 40 foot long articulated lorries .
Slap bang in the middle of the road side edge of the yard was a 1860's tumbling down mess of hand made bricks that used to be a coal yard weigh bridge office .   
He asked if he could demolish it to make way for a new vehicle access gate & was told no .

So he put ACRO jack props inside of it to hold it up , blocked all the windows & doors with mortared in breeze blocks having added several venting bricks to each window or door& put on a corrugated tin roof to keep the rain out  .
 Within weeks he was told by the town planners to get it all off and bring the building up to modern standards using traditional building methods employed in the original build .
 

 He was gob smacked to say the least , so asked the chief planning office how much was he prepared to spend  trying to force him to do as was bidden .
 All he got was a smirk & told , " We have access to far more tax payers money than you can afford , we'll bankrupt you " .

 I'm told that he had taken a radio mike inside his jacket in to the meeting and the conversation was recorded by two barristers representing my friend. 
Not long after most of the  planning dept was changed , my pal got his request to demolish & make the new opening approved .
 

 

 
Strong belief , triggers the mind to find the way ... Dyslexia just makes it that bit more amusing & interesting

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2016, 06:19:37 pm »
Great story Cloddopper
Said it many times pays to record council officials if you get a visit.
Its amazing how their version varies from everyone else.

Had several run in over the years and it pays dividends

Black Sheep

  • Joined Sep 2015
  • Briercliffe
    • Monk Hall Farm
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2016, 06:04:11 pm »
It may be worth noting that whilst it is ok to record a conversation between people, playing back that recording to a third party without the consent of the people involved is a very different thing - and may generate legal implications.

I'm all for services being delivered consistently, fairly and impartially, but wouldn't want someone to get into trouble by doing this.

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2016, 04:08:46 pm »
It may be worth noting that whilst it is ok to record a conversation between people, playing back that recording to a third party without the consent of the people involved is a very different thing - and may generate legal implications.

I'm all for services being delivered consistently, fairly and impartially, but wouldn't want someone to get into trouble by doing this.

If you get a visit inform them you are recording them before entering into a conversation.
You will find the change in attitude amazing.

I recorded a planning enforcement officer without informing him, was initially for my reference.
The conversation was full of lies from his side.
In a later conversation he denied the meeting even took place, so i informed him it was recorded.
To which he replied its inadmissible in court due to non disclosure.

I then pointed out  if he had a word with his legal department he would find out if its transcribed into a written account it is admissible in certain circumstances, and it would prove his account was not worth paper it was wrote on.

As it turned out it was not needed , the gov planning inspector saw straight through  him despite  there being two of them present against my version.

Dont let them intimidate you
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 04:46:37 pm by mart6 »

SmallWelshBarn

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Barn extension successfully beat the planners :-)
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2016, 02:36:25 pm »
Thanks for the info. It will be interesting to see how the head planner explains turning of his mic deliberately during the videoed planning meeting !

 

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