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Author Topic: Natural wormers  (Read 12885 times)

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 10:55:48 am »
Anke how come chicory is a natural vermifuge and farmers have reported that their lambs get off to market quicker? I wouldnt rule out the conventional at all but we should keep eyes open to nature as well. There are natural wormers and conventional. The conventional will wipe out all worms but with natural wormers you have to administer more reguarlarly. To say that there is no natural wormer is false, there are and always have been how do you think they coped thousands of years ago? For now conventional wormers rule, but you cant close your mind to the fact that there are other ways/methods by using nature, out there.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 10:58:13 am by waterbuffalofarmer »
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2016, 11:09:53 am »
I was just reading in a herbal book that I have and it deals with certain herbs. The most popular herbs for vermifuge are garlic, thyme, tansy and wormwood. They do recommend that you consult your herbalist before administering them, as different herbs treat different strains of worms. For example not all herbs will kill of intestinal worms, some will and some won't. Garlic it says is a worm preventative and can treat infestations of worms too. You would have to learn more about them and the science behind how they work before administering anything. It could be that because people are not using natural wormers correctly, hence leading to sad animals, is because they have lack of knowledge. So my advice is study a huge amount more about them before using them. :) Hope this helps!
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2016, 12:27:12 pm »
Fortunately these days you can get reliable worm counts done regularly so if you want to try different methods you can at least verify if they are working. Herbal books are mostly repeated passages from previous books rather than evidence based and whilst some are substantiated a lot of the statements are folk lore. Believe it or not.

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2016, 12:36:23 pm »
Thank you waterbuffalofarmer - for telling me to "go and learn more". I have a PhD in Chemistry and a fairly good understanding of the science involved. I also usually get my information from quality textbooks and peer-reviewed publications.

PS.: I wasn't asking for your advice btw.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 12:40:15 pm »
The thing is, just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good, safe or effective. Personally I'd far rather trust a man-made chemical that has been properly tested for efficacy and safety.

What's the safe meat withdrawal period for wormwood for instance?

We have used garlic...........FEC reduction was ok


That's really interesting to hear that it actually did something.  Has anybody else tried a proper egg count reduction experiment using any of the other 'natural wormers'?

"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2016, 01:01:11 pm »
Thank you waterbuffalofarmer - for telling me to "go and learn more". I have a PhD in Chemistry and a fairly good understanding of the science involved. I also usually get my information from quality textbooks and peer-reviewed publications.

PS.: I wasn't asking for your advice btw.
I know that [member=3211]Anke[/member] and I wasn't necessarily directing the go learn more at you, I was directing it at everyone really. We should try and learn more if we want to do the best for our animals. I was merely putting it out for discussion :)
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2016, 01:05:32 pm »
The thing is, just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's good, safe or effective. Personally I'd far rather trust a man-made chemical that has been properly tested for efficacy and safety.

What's the safe meat withdrawal period for wormwood for instance?

We have used garlic...........FEC reduction was ok


That's really interesting to hear that it actually did something.  Has anybody else tried a proper egg count reduction experiment using any of the other 'natural wormers'?
Very interesting point [member=2128]Womble[/member]  it would be good to know that. I don't think that there is a withdrawal period on wormwood, although it might taint the meat. Wormwood is perfectly safe for human beings, as long as it is taken in small amounts, I tried it once, although not nice...... I think they used it in the midle east for humans too, as they were more advanced in natural medicines back in the day. In fact a lot of the research does come from Arabia and other parts of the middle east, as do a lot of the best healers from the middle ages and so forth :) All this has made me think of buying more books about herbs and their uses now, thanks guys I have enjoyed this discussion! :excited:
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2016, 01:11:35 pm »
[member=2128]Womble[/member] I thought about trying a FEC route with Vermix but concluded it wasn't cost effective. Given the anecdotal evidence the chances are some of these remedies have some efficacy, but the quantity you would need to feed generally makes them impractical or expensive compared with a good old dose of chemical wormer.  Vermix had to downgrade their claims substantially when they were challenged to provide data. [member=29066]Tim W[/member] can you elaborate on your comment that FEC reduction was ok?  Numbers of sheep, FEC count before and after using garlic, how long you used it for? 

Sorry [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] I'm not sure more books on Herbals will get you more learning.  They simply repeat each other. But then like Anke I am disadvantaged with the rigour of an advanced Chemistry degree.

Tim W

  • Joined Aug 2013
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2016, 01:27:12 pm »

We used the garlic drench many years ago (25?) when we first went organic
There were 600 ewes so I am guessing we drenched 900 lambs max.(probably only 600)
I can't remember the precise reduction in FEC but it was very effective (would like to say 98%+ but can't recall now)
It was a one off attempt and was abandoned for a few reasons;
1) It was hard work to prepare and to administer in such large volumes
2) We got much better at grazing management which helped reduce the problem
3) We did some hard selection to reduce the number of obviously susceptible animals (just high dag scores/dirty types)
4) The organic bodies became more inclined to allow derogations for anthelmintic use

However you could argue that with the large volumes of drench involved we should have killed just about everything in the lamb's gut!

My approach to herbal and other ''natural'' remedies is much more rigorous these days ---I demand data as proof and have been involved in enough trials to make we want independent reviews too

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2016, 01:45:23 pm »
Whether you agree with the herbal route or not I don't think anyone needs to be touchy or rude! Aconite is good for stress I believe!


Very often people who go down the "herbal" or "natural" route don't take into account stocking density and pasture management and I also have seen some sick looking animals kept in this way that are not thriving. Equally, I have seen this approach where there is enough grazing and proper pasture rotation and management and seen some lovely stock.


I have also seen both sides of the coin with people who only use chemicals.

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2016, 01:55:16 pm »
Thank you [member=29066]Tim W[/member] , very interesting. It would be good to see more evaluation on natural remedies that are scientifically rigorous, so if you come across some please point us at them. Though please protect me from the pseudoscience brigade or I'll be reaching for the Aconite.

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2016, 02:14:45 pm »
Animals survived perfectly well before we domesticated them, seeking out the most appropriate food stuffs at certain times of the year (like sheep who will search out wild garlic). However, man has intensified their production, confined them and increased their stocking density, thus throwing a spanner in the works.  Hence the need for chemical solutions.


I'm sure there are plant & mineral based solutions that work but you also have to factor in stocking densities and pasture rotation etc.  In the wild it might be that an animal will only visit a particular grazing area once a year?

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2016, 02:35:48 pm »
Very interesting point [member=2128]Womble[/member]  it would be good to know that. I don't think that there is a withdrawal period on wormwood, although it might taint the meat. Wormwood is perfectly safe for human beings, as long as it is taken in small amounts

That's my point really. Penicillin is perfectly safe for human beings, yet lethal to the humble guinea pig!

When I come to send my sheep to slaughter, I have to sign something that says

Quote
Withdrawal periods have been observed for all veterinary medicines and other treatments administered to the animals

That's tricky if I've given them things (natural or un-natural) that have never been properly assessed for use in sheep :-\

Right, break over - I'd best get back to assessing the safety of a large scale agrochemical formulation plant  ;)
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

DartmoorLiz

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • Devon
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2016, 10:07:38 am »
What a good scrap! 


They used to use arsenic as a wormer.  Its natural.  They stopped for some reason.  They also used to use it as makeup.  They stopped that too funnily enough.


Things move on.  The conventional wormers are targeted; poisonous to the worms, not poisonous to the sheep.  If natural wormers ever had any efficacy, that would surely have been overcome by the worms ability to adapt.  Exposing any population of organisms to any stress on a regular basis simply gives the population more opportunities to adapt.  End result - it stops being a stress (if it ever was).
Never ever give up.

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Natural wormers
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 10:22:02 am »
Well put DartmoorLiz. I don't see it as a scrap though....on the whole people have been politely putting their points based on their different knowledge and experience. 

The general public's ability to use scientific methods rather than judge based on invalidated opinions is abysmal, watch any documentary or political debate, No better than the general publics ignorance of how livestock and food production are managed....

Although big Pharma R&D was dominated by chemical molecule development in the eighties there were still natural product departments sifting earth world wide looking for new leads for antibiotics for example, a bit of a side line then. In recent years the promise of biological based medicines has taken the interest and money. Whether you are man (woman), sheep or mouse it is the safety and efficacy that matters not the chemical or biological origin of the therapy. The key point I think several people have made is it should be evidence and knowledge based not anecdotal choices if you want to be confident of the therapy you are using.  Not to mention the right dosing regime.

 

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