[Isla]

Hello.  I have two goatlings: one AN, one ANxBS. My main aim is to milk them for our own household.

Please do correct me if I get any terminology wrong here. I am a novice and here to learn.

If they both kid Spring '17, then I'll have to wait until Autumn '18 before I can put either the original two or their female progeny into kid. Correct?

So should I just get one of them in kid this year so that I can put the other one in kid next year and alternate them?

That would mean that one of them would be 3 years old before she kids. Is that too old?

Can anyone give me a link or name of a book that explains how many generations it takes to get back to a purebreed?

How much does size matter? My goats are quite large.

I think that ultimately the selection of a stud will be based on geography. The nearest AN billy is two hours away, I believe.

I did consider trying to find a boer billy, but it looks as if it's difficult to arrange slaughter in my area. So any male kids will be castrated and kept as pets rather than raising them for meat.

Eventually I'd like to have a billy myself.

[Buttermilk]

You do not have to run them through for two years, one could be served again to kid after a year.  The main drawback of this is it can reduce the ability to run through in later years.  However if she is from a good milking line she will not be effected too much.

I have not been breeding registered goats for a while so do not know the current grading up regulations but it used to be that 3 of the 4 grandparents had to be in the breed section of the stud book if it was a cross between registered goats, or there had to be one generation in the identity register, one in the foundation register and two in the British register for grading up goats.

[clydesdaleclopper]

[member=26799]fsmnutter[/member] has a boer boy over Banff way if you get stuck trying to get an AN. I'm hoping in a few years to have enough AN girls to justify keeping my own boy - just don't tell OH 

[Penninehillbilly]

I would breed them both this year, they kid in spring 2017, the AN put in kid again autumn 2017, the BSx should be able to run through better, not sure if AN's run through, I don't keep them,, but from then on you could try alternate years. Yes, their female progeny would be ready autumn 2018,
To me pure bred means Toggenburgs or Sanaans that go back to he imported stock, no impurities allowed, if you mean your BS, herd book registration, i think its about 4 generations, I'm sure someone else will be along soon with that, have you a registration for your BSx?
Are you in the BGS?

[Isla]

You do not have to run them through for two years, one could be served again to kid after a year.  The main drawback of this is it can reduce the ability to run through in later years.  However if she is from a good milking line she will not be effected too much.

Thanks for this, Buttermilk.

To me pure bred means Toggenburgs or Sanaans that go back to he imported stock, no impurities allowed, if you mean your BS, herd book registration, i think its about 4 generations,

  Ahh, thanks.  I think 'grading up' was the phrase I was looking for.  I've got the BGS certificates for my goats which says that they were transferred to me.  Just this morning I have filled in membership forms for the BGS and the Anglo Nubian Breed Society 

[fsmnutter]

I did consider trying to find a boer billy, but it looks as if it's difficult to arrange slaughter in my area. So any male kids will be castrated and kept as pets rather than raising them for meat.

Eventually I'd like to have a billy myself.

The pet market for larger breeds (rather than pygmies) isn't very strong, you may find that castrated males will end up in the meat market, and often halal market.
We love goat meat so would think it awful to waste the boys as pets! We've taken them to Grantown on Spey for slaughter, but will take our next to Dingwall as we've started taking pigs and sheep there too.
We certainly do have a Boer Billy just outside Banff. He will cover our older girls this year, then we will be looking to sell or swap him before his daughters need serving. If you were interested in hiring him for your girls or even buying him, just drop me a pm.
I would also advise getting both covered to kid by 2 years, as older ladies will put down fat around ovaries and struggle to get in kid.we have had goats kid at 10 and 16 months (the 10m was an accident, she got caught on her first season in August just before the Billy came out!) as well as the usual 24 months. We were very happy with the nanny that kidded at 10m, her condition was better than her twin sister who didn't kid! The others have done fine as well at 16/24 months at kidding, but I could see it could be difficult to keep their condition right after that age to prevent problems with conception or kidding.
Thereafter, we have put the saanens in kid every year (we think one slipped her kids early one year as she wasn't returning to season for a couple of months then started cycling again but didn't take again that year) because we like the meat and have been building the herd. You could easily cover every year or every other year if they don't tend to being fat.

[Isla]

Not sure why I thought it was common practice to breed every two years.  Maybe because, as [member=75709]Buttermilk[/member] says, it affects their ability to run through later on.

The pet market for larger breeds (rather than pygmies) isn't very strong

I meant I'd keep them as pets!  But, of course, I don't want to be overrun.  So whether the wethers are AN or ANxBoer, I guess some at least will go to slaugher.  [member=26799]fsmnutter[/member] I may be in touch again to find out what's involved in this, if that's okay.

I would also advise getting both covered to kid by 2 years, as older ladies will put down fat around ovaries and struggle to get in kid

Thanks.  That's one of my answers fully answered 

What does it mean if a goat 'slipped her kids'?

Sometimes I think my goats are fat and then I think they're just fluffy.  Took them to a couple of shows and no one remarked on their weight so hopefully they are a healthy size.  I brush them almost daily to no avail - why can't I get them to look sleek?!

[Talana]

Hi, Isla just home from forfar goat shows. Beth and Bob have several AN males between them they may be able to loan them to you, (one is for sale or loan I think. There is quite a few Boer males. I would put them both in kid. Ideally their progeny go in kid as goatlings not kids. It is possible to have kidded kids but in my opinion best for them to kid no younger than 15 months depending on individual. AN's don't always run through well although some do. Some breeders prefer to kid them every year as they can be prone to cystic ovary's if not kidded. Ballingall won't be home yet but can advise you. Saw Lyn at the weekend shes delighted they are getting on fine with you and you had them at Turriff and Tarland. Give her a call she's more than happy to help. Too late now (that's me grounded til next year)  but if you need help getting a male home I could give him a lift in future years from the show go-ing breeders.

[fsmnutter]

Not sure why I thought it was common practice to breed every two years.  Maybe because, as [member=75709]Buttermilk[/member] says, it affects their ability to run through later on.

The pet market for larger breeds (rather than pygmies) isn't very strong

I meant I'd keep them as pets!  But, of course, I don't want to be overrun.  So whether the wethers are AN or ANxBoer, I guess some at least will go to slaugher.  [member=26799]fsmnutter[/member] I may be in touch again to find out what's involved in this, if that's okay.

I would also advise getting both covered to kid by 2 years, as older ladies will put down fat around ovaries and struggle to get in kid

Thanks.  That's one of my answers fully answered 

What does it mean if a goat 'slipped her kids'?

Sometimes I think my goats are fat and then I think they're just fluffy.  Took them to a couple of shows and no one remarked on their weight so hopefully they are a healthy size.  I brush them almost daily to no avail - why can't I get them to look sleek?!

If not wanting too many kids, but wanting the goats for milk, breeding every 2 years keeps the numbers of kids to eat/sell down.
Feel free to stay in touch about the logistics of slaughter, goats people are generally friendly and like to try to help where we can!
Slipped kids is an abortion, I think slipped sounds more sensible when it's been early and they're barely a ball of cells than a late stage abortion.
Sometimes show animals are expected to be in "good condition" so it's tricky to say they're not "fat" when compared to show condition. Perhaps another goat keeper may be able to show you how to condition score, there are multiple guides online with descriptions and pictures as to what you should see and feel over ribs, back and trailhead.

[Talana]

Your goats are fine Isla, nice welll grown goats nice condition, so don't worry. They normally start putting on extra fat internally first, then on the flank just behind the elbow. Then the brisket which is in my opinion too fat. Lastly on their back. Goatlings are normally more fluffy and often  put thick coats on for first winter. Some years they can be late casting and even just start getting rid of winter coat and then quickly start putting it on again. This last few years my milkers have been late casting not in their summer gloss till second half of July. My goatling was early and now has winter coat growing in.This years kids have just got rid of baby fluff end of July (march & April born) There was one I saw yesterday just started casting but if we get colder weather she might stop casting and put back on the winter coat.

[Isla]

Thanks for all advice and information.

Just spoken to Bob and will take the goats down and leave them there for a few weeks!  So will use an AN billy this time and see how they get on.  Will see what's happening next summer/Autumn and work out a future plan i.e. will I take one or both to an AN billy again, will another billy of a different breed but closer location be more suitable, will I put both of my goats in kid again and so on.

[Penninehillbilly]

Make sure any male you use is CAE negative, if the males owner isnt sure about your girls you may need a CAE certificate for yours.

[Isla]

Yes all involved are CAE neg