[harmony]

I haven't read it all in detail but worth googling 'Lynx Trust UK'.

Click on green writing in FAQS and it takes you to their FB page for detailed responses.

I suppose, as with most things, you'd have to read and research quite widely and lots of different sources before even beginning to make a judgement.

I didn't realise that they were so big though!

All very clear information on the lynx site but rather too simple. I don't think having no lynx is the sole reason the deer population has grown. And don't all animals in a food chain rely on a food source and if it is scarce then their numbers are naturally reduced or they choose another food source. So, as there are plenty of deer and with a plentiful food source is the population of lynx not more likely to flourish and grow? Is there enough habitat to sustain that?

[in the hills]

Mmmmm, I suppose the population could flourish to the point that it became a problem. In general though humans as a species are very good at controlling other species .... We've managed to wipe enough out after all! Dare say they'd be forced to think about control if need be.

Quite interesting to note how red kites have flourished. I've spoken to people who think that they may soon become a problem locally.

[harmony]

Mmmmm, I suppose the population could flourish to the point that it became a problem. In general though humans as a species are very good at controlling other species .... We've managed to wipe enough out after all! Dare say they'd be forced to think about control if need be.

Quite interesting to note how red kites have flourished. I've spoken to people who think that they may soon become a problem locally.

I don't agree that we are good at controlling other species - look at the hedgehog problem on the Scottish Isles, badgers, geese on Windermere - as soon as we talk about a cull the vast majority of people start complaining.

[Black Sheep]

Agree with all these potential issues, which is why there has to be a properly considered process that looks at all eventualities, led by people who are expert in those topics. So for example biological statisticians that can model population growth depending on conditions, habitat, food, intervention etc, so that we have better visibility in advance of likely scenarios.

There must also be an exit process in case things don't go as planned and a strategy to maintain populations within the modelled range that limits negative impacts to the acceptable level determined at the start (there will be some - we have to be realistic about all consequences and have agreed ways to address them).

One option, for example, is to only release sterilised animals so that they can't breed and then you have an ability to see what a distinct population does with no danger of it growing out of control. This is an option we're looking at on the African side for reintroduction of lion into a closed system as we are concerned about the potential negative impact on other predators (especially cheetah and wild dog, who will be targeted by lion as competitors).. but I digress.

However we all also have to recognise that this is far more complex than our gut feelings and that the positive or negative impact on us or the aspects we individually value most are not the sole drivers of any eventual decision.

[Buttermilk]

Mmmmm, I suppose the population could flourish to the point that it became a problem. In general though humans as a species are very good at controlling other species .... We've managed to wipe enough out after all! Dare say they'd be forced to think about control if need be.

Quite interesting to note how red kites have flourished. I've spoken to people who think that they may soon become a problem locally.

Red kite are already a problem in at least one area.  Talking to someone who lives not too far from Harrgate and they have had to give up rearing poultry and game birds as the kites were taking any from outside the sheds.  He now also lambs his sheep indoors for the same reason.

[in the hills]

We can have up to a dozen kites overhead now. We're in the middle of pheasant shooting country and people feel that problems will occur if population gets too high. I know they're not supposed to take live birds etc We shall see .... Seems as though you know people that have experienced them taking birds?

 Believe they're still feeding them at the stations further south than us and it's literally hundreds of birds! People at the local wildlife trust are concerned about numbers and possible consequences.

[Buttermilk]

They certainly took his part grown poults.  I think the lambing is a precaution.

[Fleecewife]

I thought red kites only took carrion.  Shows that the facts are not always clear cut.   Kites used to hang around the butchers' shambles in cities in the past.

[harmony]

Agree with all these potential issues, which is why there has to be a properly considered process that looks at all eventualities, led by people who are expert in those topics. So for example biological statisticians that can model population growth depending on conditions, habitat, food, intervention etc, so that we have better visibility in advance of likely scenarios.

There must also be an exit process in case things don't go as planned and a strategy to maintain populations within the modelled range that limits negative impacts to the acceptable level determined at the start (there will be some - we have to be realistic about all consequences and have agreed ways to address them).


This is part of the issue because other "releases" don't seem to have been thought out or have an exit plan.

However we all also have to recognise that this is far more complex than our gut feelings and that the positive or negative impact on us or the aspects we individually value most are not the sole drivers of any eventual decision.

Yes, it is certainly complex but any trial will be exactly that "a trial" and whereas there maybe a perfectly good exit plan and it will hopefully look after the welfare of the lynx, it won't be any consolation to someone who has maybe lost years of breeding in a flock or herd. So, people's concerns about the release are perfectly understandable and reasonable.

[waterbuffalofarmer]

I am not convinced that a lynx could take down an adult deer, as they're not any bigger than my bearded collie. How do we know it would take down deer, wouldn't it be better to introduce panthers instead, after all there are some in the wild in both England and wales released when laws came in for licenses. I think humans should control the deer population, think of all the business you could gain by exporting British game?

[SallyintNorth]

I thought red kites only took carrion.  Shows that the facts are not always true.   Kites used to hang around the butchers' shambles in cities in the past.

I used to live near Christmas Common, where the red kites were first re-established.  They certainly seemed to be carrion-eaters thereabouts; it was said that when the kites had been eradicated many of hundreds of years earlier, the towns had subsequently become infested with mammalian carrion-eaters...

There are also usually buzzards and other raptors in the same geographical regions.  It could be that other raptors are taking poults and lambs, and the kites getting the blame.

[in the hills]

We went to an RSBP talk on red kites. They are supposed to only take carrion. Their beaks we were told weren't even strong enough to open a carcass and they rely on other carrion eaters to open the carcass. Also, although large, were not very strong and couldn't carry away a carcass.

No problems here yet. We have 'neighbours', over the hill, who are apparently feeding them.

[Big Light]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/31/escaped-lynx-from-dartmoor-zoo-is-finally-captured-with-a-trap-a/



Article re the capture of the Lynx which had unfortunately killed 4 lambs in the 3 weeks it was at large - either the lynx trust are talking dung or maybe  Flaviu didn't read the small print that said Lynx only kill 0.4 sheep a year each ( not sure how you can kill a bit yet )

[Buttermilk]

I take it there were no deer on Dartmoor for Flaviu to catch then.

[Louise Gaunt]

Flavoured is a Carpathian Lynx, smaller than the proposed ones for Keilder. All the way through his escape he was described as being not much bigger than a domestic cat. If an animal as small as that can take down what will be quite big lambs by this time of the year, a larger variety if the same species is potentially able to cause quite a lot if harm to sheep etc. I don't think re-introduction has been very well thought through, but only time will tell I suppose.