[SallyintNorth]

Story here :
http://www.thenational.scot/news/woods-in-in-the-borders-chosen-for-a-lynx-trial.20374

National Sheep Association report into the reintroduction of the Lynx http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/workspace/news-pdfs/nsa-report-on-the-wider-consequences-of-the-introduction-of-eurasian-lynx-to-the-uk.pdf (pdf)

[waterbuffalofarmer]

Thanks for that [member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member]  I had no idea that their diet fluctuated like that

[devonlady]

The missing lynx in Devon is, apparently in the next village to us!

[Big Light]

It really doesn't sit well with me that a conservation pressure group can in essence commit cruelty to animals - I.e you release lynx who are not a current UK predator in the almost certain knowledge that they will rip the throat out a sheep if any of us did this with an animal we would have to face the legal and Moral consequences yet others think they are above this!

[Black Sheep]

Predators kill things. Why would it be cruel to a sheep (that may, or may well not end up being eaten) when it isn't cruel to the rabbit or deer?

I'm not arguing one way or the other about any reintroduction per se.

[Womble]

Of course it's cruel to the rabbit or deer, but until we can convince predators to eat vegetables instead, that's just how the world works!

The lynx question is all about context though. I have never forgotten seeing both lynx and wolves in the wild in Alaska - absolutely amazing. However, that's them in their proper context. Britain has changed since either last roamed free here, and IMHO is no longer an appropriate habitat for them. I'd far rather we spent the money saving wildcats and red squirrels!

[waterbuffalofarmer]

Of course it's cruel to the rabbit or deer, but until we can convince predators to eat vegetables instead, that's just how the world works!

The lynx question is all about context though. I have never forgotten seeing both lynx and wolves in the wild in Alaska - absolutely amazing. However, that's them in their proper context. Britain has changed since either last roamed free here, and IMHO is no longer an appropriate habitat for them. I'd far rather we spent the money saving wildcats and red squirrels!

Very well put [member=2128]Womble[/member]  I think we should try and save the tiger population, after all they are getting rarer and rarer in the world, also how about saving the thousands of elephants which are slaughtered every year for their tusks, now that is abominable.

[Big Light]

The relevant legislation in Scotland is
Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006
 Part 2 Prevention of harmSection 19 it's a bit long winded and I have no issues with apex predators being predators in fact some of the most thrilling sights in nature are from these hunts however we are not talking about nature we are talking about man deliberately releasing an animal, that does not now naturally exist, that will do this. If you did it with a dog there would be consequence's

Unnecessary suffering

(1)A person commits an offence if—
(a)the person causes a protected animal unnecessary suffering by an act, and
(b)the person knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act would have caused the suffering or be likely to do so.
(2)A person who is responsible for an animal commits an offence if—
(a)the person causes the animal unnecessary suffering by an act or omission, and
(b)the person knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act or omission would have caused the suffering or be likely to do so.
(3)A person (“person A”) who is responsible for an animal commits an offence if—
(a)another person causes the animal unnecessary suffering by an act or omission, and
(b)person A—
(i)permits that to happen, or
(ii)fails to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as are reasonable in the circumstances to prevent that happening.
(4)The considerations to which regard is to be had in determining, for the purposes of subsections (1) to (3), whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced,
(b)whether the conduct concerned was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment,
(c)whether the conduct concerned was for a legitimate purpose, for example—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal,
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned,
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
(5)This section does not apply to the destruction of an animal in an appropriate and humane manner.

[Foobar]

The only species that cocks things up is the human.  We should never have wiped out the Lynx in the first place.

If we can't find a satisfactory way to live in harmony balance with the other species that exist on this planet then there is no hope for any of us.

I'm all for livestock guardian dogs.  But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans).  A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.

[harmony]

The only species that cocks things up is the human.  We should never have wiped out the Lynx in the first place.

If we can't find a satisfactory way to live in harmony balance with the other species that exist on this planet then there is no hope for any of us.

I'm all for livestock guardian dogs.  But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans).  A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.

Sweeping statements but how do we achieve it?

[nutterly_uts]

I'm all for livestock guardian dogs.  But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans).  A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.

A friend of mine looked into a livestock guardian dog and funnily enough breeders here weren't keen on them being used for that purpose!! Especially with H+S madness

[Foobar]

The only species that cocks things up is the human.  We should never have wiped out the Lynx in the first place.

If we can't find a satisfactory way to live in harmony balance with the other species that exist on this planet then there is no hope for any of us.

I'm all for livestock guardian dogs.  But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans).  A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.

Sweeping statements but how do we achieve it?

They are, but we really do need to look at the bigger picture don't we.  At least the realisation that our insanely increasing population is the cause of most of the worlds problems would be a start.  I don't know how best to fix it, there would have to be a cap on reproduction at least, but given the current state of our society, being told you can't have as many children as you want won't end well!  Perhaps nature will have it's way and wipe half of us out with some disease or something .

[Fleecewife]

I'm all for livestock guardian dogs.  But really we do need to find a better balance between man and nature: in the UK we are overstocked (by humans).  A lower population would mean less pressure on natural resources and more space for everyone, lynx included.

A friend of mine looked into a livestock guardian dog and funnily enough breeders here weren't keen on them being used for that purpose!! Especially with H+S madness

Until recently we had a guardian dog - Anatolian Karabash X Irish Wolfhound.  We had seen one at work in the French Auvergne and were impressed - very calm but constantly watchful.  Conna, our guardian, wasn't really necessary here as the only predators are likely to be foxes and badgers (seen off by our Primitive sheep), and dog packs.  As it happened we never did have dog attacks so I don't know how she would have managed, being of the gentle giant type. I think the idea is to see off predators rather than to kill them.  She loved her sheep, and they loved her.  She would happily sit amongst the flock all day, metaphorically chewing on a straw and watching into the distance.

For Lynx, I think we need to explore the possibility of reintroduction in a scientific and rational way.  Most reactions seem to be from the gut, rather than from the head.  Let's see what the science says, what the detailed proposals will be once the science is complete, and keep cool heads.

[SallyintNorth]

I wish I thought there was going to be science before a half-cocked introduction, but I am not confident.

According to the NSA doc I linked to, there isn't even enough funding to maintain the scheme for a few years, but they still seem to think they'll go ahead.  And frankly, the way things work at the moment, I think they might just go ahead without much fanfare.  And once it's done, it's done.

I'm all for wildlife, and nurture a secret wish to see wolves in Britain again, but it needs to be done thoughtfully and appropriately.

One big concern for me about introducing a medium-sized cat, which isn't even rare in Europe, is the potential harm to our own very rare and struggling Scottish Wildcat. 

[SallyintNorth]

I looked into LG dogs when I first moved here.  It only really works if

• Your land is ring-fenced
• No roads cross your land 
• No public footpaths cross your land
• (Presumeably) Your land is not what we in England call 'Access Land', ie., where members of the public have a right to roam (and isn't this all of Scotland?)

Unless you can enlighten me more, FW - I talked to people with LG dogs in other countries, didn't manage to discover that we had local expertise!    I was given to understand that the dogs would guard the livestock against all 'invaders'; that they learn who is 'family' but would not get the hang of random walkers crossing meadows on footpaths.  And I was certainly given the impression that they might do more than bark