[Fleecewife]

I can't access your first link Sally.  The NSA paper is extremely interesting, and the data they have looked at so far is very worrying.  Some of their arguments are a bit vague 'might', 'shouldn't', 'could' with not much to back those statements, but for the most part I was impressed with their case.
If they have presented the case in a completely unbiased way, then it does look as if the science hasn't been done, and the 'funding' is ludicrous and charity based.  Scary stuff. I had thought there must be an exit strategy - seems not.
I will continue to look at further research and proposals, but I find myself gradually falling off the fence in the direction of 'no'.  It would seem that Britain isn't suitable for the return of a predator just yet.  Maybe after the 'poxyclipsy when the human population has been almost wiped out, we'll get them anyway.

[SallyintNorth]

Try it now, FW, I've edited the first link.

[Fleecewife]

Try it now, FW, I've edited the first link.

That works - Thanks Sally.  Hmmm - still consultations to do.  It would be good to see what has been discussed so far.

[Fleecewife]

I looked into LG dogs when I first moved here.  It only really works if

• Your land is ring-fenced
• No roads cross your land 
• No public footpaths cross your land
• (Presumeably) Your land is not what we in England call 'Access Land', ie., where members of the public have a right to roam (and isn't this all of Scotland?)

Unless you can enlighten me more, FW - I talked to people with LG dogs in other countries, didn't manage to discover that we had local expertise!    I was given to understand that the dogs would guard the livestock against all 'invaders'; that they learn who is 'family' but would not get the hang of random walkers crossing meadows on footpaths.  And I was certainly given the impression that they might do more than bark

From what I've heard of guardian dogs in the US, they have to live with the flock from when they're tiny puppies, so they think they're sheep.  This way, wherever the flock is, so is the dog, so fencing isn't an issue with a hefted flock.
The one we saw in the Auvergne wandered across to check us out, but there was a ratty fence along the roadside (it could easily have hopped over had it wanted to).  This was in the mountains, and I couldn't see any other fences.
But yes, I get your point that British access laws would mean a guardian dog could be in big trouble.  Conna did once bound across a field when some people arrived, who she didn't know, and they walked straight onto our land unannounced.  She barked furiously and the woman was livid, but Conna didn't attack, just gave them one ginormous fright  .  You couldn't trust that it wouldn't happen though.  Our set-up here, with double fencing and hedges the whole way round only leaves the gates for critturs to jump over, or sheep mesh fence for small ones to push through.  We do have a road running through our place, but we keep only tups on the other side.

In the context of Lynx, I can't say how a guardian dog would perform.  Would it be able to frighten the lynx away, or would it have to fight?  Cat v dog, both big and strong....   I've always felt that guardians would be better having two to look after each flock, especially where there are wolves, bears etc.

[SallyintNorth]

Keilder is one of the last refuges of the red squirrel...

[harmony]

I agree with SC there is much to do to help our own wildlife and to deal with the problems with the protected species we have  already.


Maybe introduce some more of those very rare breed - the person with some commonsense.

[Black Sheep]

The relevant legislation in Scotland is
Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006
 Part 2 Prevention of harmSection 19 it's a bit long winded and I have no issues with apex predators being predators in fact some of the most thrilling sights in nature are from these hunts however we are not talking about nature we are talking about man deliberately releasing an animal, that does not now naturally exist, that will do this. If you did it with a dog there would be consequence's

Owners of domestic cats arguably then also fall foul of the law given that their pets can kill things, often after tormenting it for a while, which the owner "ought reasonably to have known" could happen. Clearly this isn't the case.

The debate throughout the posts has largely returned to the one seen in a previous thread. The key here is not any of our preconceived notions (whether they be pro or anti reintroduction) but whether the issue has been fully worked through by people that properly understand the subject, and that includes not just experts in the species involved but experts in the fields that may be affected, for example farming. Until then any reintroduction would be premature but equally so would any dismissal of it.

Reintroducing a species that has been absent from an ecosystem for some time can have its problems but it can also solve problems too. Speaking as someone who has been involved with the re-introduction of white rhino and African wild dog to a closed system, albeit as a "non-expert", I can and have seen both sides. But there is wider evidence - for example look at the massive system changes resulting from the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone.

Looking at this a different way the overpopulation of deer is a huge environmental problem - they cause damage to crops, have effectively kept areas deforested, and injure people (via road accidents). Clearly our efforts to cull them are insufficiently effective. Mightn't it be an idea worth considering to have something around that would eat them? Everything in life is a balance of pros and cons - there will certainly be downsides of any potential lynx reintroduction but if they are outweighed overall by the upsides maybe we should do it.

[Womble]

Harmony - arguably the reason we're low on common sense is the lack of "selection pressure" on humans in their natural environment. I propose we reintroduce mammoths, bears, mountain lions and wolves, then hang signs around their necks that say "free selfies here", or "registered pokestop". That would go some way to redressing the balance  .

[waterbuffalofarmer]

except [member=242]Blacksheep[/member]  the wolves reintroduced themselves and they already have lived in that country for hundreds of years. Africa and America are completely different to Britain, Britain is a much smaller isle. if we have too many deer why dont we start shooting them ourselves and selling British venison instead of importing a lot of it. Personally its our own laziness to not control the problem of the deer here, if we cant control the population of deer or badgers then how will we control the Lynx population if it gets too big? Ah wait they'll be protected like the badgers, my point exactly

[harmony]

Harmony - arguably the reason we're low on common sense is the lack of "selection pressure" on humans in their natural environment. I propose we reintroduce mammoths, bears, mountain lions and wolves, then hang signs around their necks that say "free selfies here", or "registered pokestop". That would go some way to redressing the balance  .

More than likely Womble I wouldn't disagree but however we look at it the world has changed. Some of it for the better and some of it for the worse. We have without doubt created problems but not just for animals but for ourselves.

[in the hills]

I haven't read it all in detail but worth googling 'Lynx Trust UK'.

Click on green writing in FAQS and it takes you to their FB page for detailed responses.

I suppose, as with most things, you'd have to read and research quite widely and lots of different sources before even beginning to make a judgement.

I didn't realise that they were so big though!

[Black Sheep]

except [member=242]Blacksheep[/member]  the wolves reintroduced themselves and they already have lived in that country for hundreds of years.

Sorry [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] they didn't, they were directly reintroduced by man:

"When the long white truck drove through Roosevelt Arch on Jan. 12, 1995, it was almost like watching a modern-day Trojan horse arrive in Yellowstone. Inside were eight gray wolves from Jasper National Park in Alberta, Canada. They became the first wolves to roam Yellowstone since the 1920s when the last pack was killed. By the end of 1996, 31 wolves were relocated to the park."

http://www.yellowstonepark.com/yellowstone-wolves-reintroduction/

Africa and America are completely different to Britain, Britain is a much smaller isle.

Different yes, but we aren't talking about reintroducing elephants or lion. We're talking about animals that are found in similar ecosystems and have been in this one before. The point was made to show that there are a wide range of positives and negatives to consider that go far beyond most of the things we can visualise as non-experts.

if we have too many deer why dont we start shooting them ourselves and selling British venison instead of importing a lot of it.

I'm all for harvesting them. But we already do hunt them - and aren't making a dent.

if we cant control the population of deer or badgers then how will we control the Lynx population if it gets too big? Ah wait they'll be protected like the badgers, my point exactly

1. The population will be far, far smaller - we're probably talking dozens not hundreds of thousands.

2. This is another example of what I'm driving at - people jumping to preconceived conclusions.

[Fleecewife]

You make some very relevant points Black Sheep.

[Fleecewife]

Harmony - arguably the reason we're low on common sense is the lack of "selection pressure" on humans in their natural environment. I propose we reintroduce mammoths, bears, mountain lions and wolves, then hang signs around their necks that say "free selfies here", or "registered pokestop". That would go some way to redressing the balance  .

Darwin is already on the case - he uses cars 

[harmony]

except [member=242]Blacksheep[/member]  the wolves reintroduced themselves and they already have lived in that country for hundreds of years.

Sorry [member=42855]waterbuffalofarmer[/member] they didn't, they were directly reintroduced by man:

"When the long white truck drove through Roosevelt Arch on Jan. 12, 1995, it was almost like watching a modern-day Trojan horse arrive in Yellowstone. Inside were eight gray wolves from Jasper National Park in Alberta, Canada. They became the first wolves to roam Yellowstone since the 1920s when the last pack was killed. By the end of 1996, 31 wolves were relocated to the park."

http://www.yellowstonepark.com/yellowstone-wolves-reintroduction/

Africa and America are completely different to Britain, Britain is a much smaller isle.

Different yes, but we aren't talking about reintroducing elephants or lion. We're talking about animals that are found in similar ecosystems and have been in this one before. The point was made to show that there are a wide range of positives and negatives to consider that go far beyond most of the things we can visualise as non-experts.

if we have too many deer why dont we start shooting them ourselves and selling British venison instead of importing a lot of it.

I'm all for harvesting them. But we already do hunt them - and aren't making a dent.

if we cant control the population of deer or badgers then how will we control the Lynx population if it gets too big? Ah wait they'll be protected like the badgers, my point exactly

1. The population will be far, far smaller - we're probably talking dozens not hundreds of thousands.

2. This is another example of what I'm driving at - people jumping to preconceived conclusions.

You spoiled it by putting "probably" in point one above. The issue about what happens should there be a population explosion is a very real one and people maybe more reassured if they knew what might happen in all possible scenarios.