[stufe35]

I'm failing to understand where in all this it is me that is being harsh.

Someone breaks the law by allowing their dogs to be out of control...they kill my chickens.

They further break the law by having no collar on their dog...and try to justify it.


I however have looked after their dog to prevent it causing further harm, found out who the owner was, allowed them to come and collect the dog.

Where in all this have I been harsh ?

They have offered to recommence for the hens and that helps...but what hits you is that doesn't really cut it, I have  tried to demonstrate why in what I have said.

What I really want is for them to become responsible dog owners and not let them escape again because now they will no doubt be straight back to worry my livestock.

[doganjo]

I'm failing to understand where in all this it is me that is being harsh.

Someone breaks the law by allowing their dogs to be out of control...they kill my chickens.

They further break the law by having no collar on their dog...and try to justify it.


I however have looked after their dog to prevent it causing further harm, found out who the owner was, allowed them to come and collect the dog.

Where in all this have I been harsh ?

They have offered to recommence for the hens and that helps...but what hits you is that doesn't really cut it, I have  tried to demonstrate why in what I have said.

What I really want is for them to become responsible dog owners and not let them escape again because now they will no doubt be straight back to worry my livestock.

Totally agree with you, Stufe35, and you know my credentials regarding dogs.
However, LF, it is definitely going too far to say it's a short step from killing a chicken to other animals and people. Dogs are prey animals - if it runs or flutters it gets chased (unless trained otherwise or a different instinct - mine point for  instance, can hold point for up to 45 minutes on occasion, flush and retrieve on command).  A fox would only attack a human or large animal if desperate and more than likely in defence.  Mostly it's the same with a dog, although I admit there are sheep chasers, but they aren't actually that frequent.  Personally however, I wouldn't feel 100% confident of my youngster with sheep so she doesn't get any opportunity. 

I think much more education is required for dog owners walking dogs in the countryside.

[lord flynn]

I didn't say people dojango, I appreciate a dog having a high prey drive is not the same as being a danger to people. but I do feel a dog that can't control itself around poultry could be a danger to other pets, cats included as well as other stock and I wasn't the only person to mention this. My comment as to cows and calves was meant in that I rather hoped a cow might serve them a lesson in having their animal chased!


I've had my horses chased by wayward dogs a number of times in the past and nothing gets me quite so angry. But it doesn't matter if its a chicken, a horse or a sheep if its someone else's. And I have dogs of various breeds and they were all stock proof as will the next ones be.


There's been a massive increase in sheep worrying in this area in the last year.

[Herdygirl]

Am a bit late to this thread so not sure if my advice will be of help.  I had a dog attac k my in lamb ewes earlier this year.  After reporting it to the police (and you have to do this) i had to point out to them that to allow a dog to be 'at large' whether its got out of the house, run off on a walk or slipped its collar, is a criminal offence and I told them that i wanted the owner charged.  The short story is that I agreed that if he paid for the damage then i might consider him to sign a contract that binds him to not allow any of his dogs to be at large in the future (no time limit).  This was done.  Although it will never happen with this dog again (it was shot)  this contract will lie on file.

However, i was shocked to find out that the CPS will rarely take anyone to court if it is a first offence, whether it be the owner of a dog that attacks livestock, a shoplifter, someone who assaults his wife or children or mugs an old lady. 

[doganjo]

I have been at the other end of this - we decided to let our fields out to a local friendly farmer for a season as they were short of grass.

We came home from a shopping trip (only away for about an hour and a half) to find our very well maintained fencing torn down, our dogs cowering in their sturdy metal runs (thank goodness it was weld-mesh), huge hoof holes all over our neat front lawn, and the beautiful shrubs being happily munched by a herd of Blondie/Angus heifers.  We didn't know why they had rushed the fence, but we can only guess it was the sound of the tornado that flew over while we were in Tesco. 

What could we do? - wasn't Liz and John's fault. We all mucked in and got the beasts back in, fixed the fence, consoled and walked the dogs, then sat down to a bottle of lovely French wine.

[chrismahon]

Well I'm sure I'll upset more than a few people here but the dog attack has taught you a lesson Stufe35. It is your moral duty to give your livestock the best welfare and leaving them in open ground to dog or fox attack isn't doing the job. I realise the cost of a secure enclosure far exceeds the value of the hens, but that isn't an equation I would be using. So you intend to replace the hens and leave them in the same position- fear of imminent attack and painful death? I think best not replace them on welfare grounds, because the dogs or any foxes will be there for a meal. Build a proper enclosure first.


So what if the dog didn't have a collar, foxes don't either!

[lord flynn]

So what if the dog didn't have a collar, foxes don't either!

the OP's stock (and mine) were not killed by a fox, they were killed by an animal that was someone else's responsibility. Your argument doesn't make sense in this context as it shouldn't have happened and wuldnt have, had the owners been doing their job.

[stufe35]

I hear what you say Chris.   We are very lucky and have learned over the years that we are only bothered by foxes during the cub season when foxes stray a bit further to find food.   We have a secure enclosure in which they  stay during those months.....although for the first time in seven years a fox managed to get in last year....suitable additional measures have now been added !

The rest of the year we let them out in day light hours , fasten them up at dusk without issue....normally !

We take a calculated risk with foxes and it works.  In return the hens get to roam and have a great time.

I have to disagree with your comment about collars. It is a legal requirement  in this country for dogs not kept on their own private land to have a collar and ID on. Not so a fox.

If this dog had a collar I would never have needed to call the police as I have known the owner for over ten years...and he is a decent bloke...I didn't realise he had dogs otherwise I would have called him...his number is in my mobile !

I have really enjoyed sharing my experience on this thread...from the initial upset and rage I have calmed down I have learned over the years that shouting swearing and getting angry doesn't get you anywhere. Considered thought and appropriate response is much better. 

Thank you everyone for your input. Particularly those that have  put very objective views despite their alliances and those that have sent pms. It has helped me rationalise what has happened.

I have reflected on life in the countryside.  In the past our dog has escaped...usually only when lured by a stray I might add.  Our cattle and sheep have escaped too despite my continuous monitoring of fencing.  Animals are alive and break things, people don't fasten catches properly...you can't watch everything all of the time . This isn't gross negligence....its life. My neighbours (various)too have rung us to say our animals have escaped, they have helped us recover them. 

My biggest annoyance is that now these dogs know where we are they will most likely be back. So the remainder of our hens are deprived of their free roaming and rich pickings through lush green grass and are confined to their pen, unless we are around.




This is life in the country side..not perfect ..but a damn sight better than the city !

[chrismahon]

Stufe35 is entirely at fault here Scarlet.Dragon. Foxes attack frequently during the day now due to urban releases and cross-breeding, so perhaps your perception is over 15 years out of date. Free range is a minefield for chickens. Our neighbours hens spend the whole day running from cover to cover in an unfenced area, whereas ours have a secure enclosure (and they know it) of ample size and are completely happy- still defined as best standard free range as they have 15m2 each.

In France dog attacks are common. Stray hunting dogs kill so many chickens that keepers have given up rather than face the costs of building an enclosure. I even heard of a keeper whose neighbour had workmen in. One let his dog out of the van which promptly killed all their chickens.

You cannot have chickens in an unsecured environment anymore unless you deliberately sacrifice their welfare for financial considerations.


Just read your post Stufe35. Perhaps you can increase the pen size and keep them in. The rich feed pickings are very seasonal and require a good eye to keep their protein balance right for laying. Our neighbours hens are now supplemented with our layers pellets! Believe me, life in the countryside here is far far more hazardous than England as foxes hunt in co-ordinated packs and the hunting dogs are so powerful they can tear through chicken wire. Perhaps if we had known how bad it was we wouldn't be here?

[Old Shep]

I have followed this post with interest having both stock and dogs (some of whom are a real challenge!).  I think the OP has taken us through his journey with this event quite honestly, sharing his anger which we all would feel.  chrismahon I think you are going a bit too far in stating that Stufe25 is entirely at fault.  We have sheep in fields enclosed by stone walls.  Nearly all dogs are capable of scaling a dry stone wall.  So next time I find a sheep mauled or worse is it my fault?  Should I have tennis court style fencing around my whole farm?  Or should dog owners be responsible for their dogs?  And what about the footpaths which cross my land - should dog walkers their dogs on lead or is it my fault if they run amok and kill my lambs?

[stufe35]

Chris , fortunately here in England things aren't so bad...our method of hen keeping worked fine for my dad, and worked fine for his dad....almost 50 years that I'm aware of.

We don't get urban foxes and have an active hunt in the area which controls the numbers...although  I'm not sure how because of course they don't catch foxes.. They just take their horses for a little trot across the fields and exercise the hounds 

We don't normally get dogs on the loose...let's hope we don't again.  In the meantime i am considering how things could be re organised to get an electric fence to work.

The farmers round here have pheasant pens in the woods....they put a single strand of electric fence right around at about 1foot off the ground .  They say this allows the pheasants to get under the fence, but foxes get a nasty zap and leg it.   Anyone any experience of doing this ?

[sabrina]

I have stock fencing with electric on top. YET I still get neighbours dogs chasing my animals. I made it quite plain that enough was enough and I would sue if anything more happened. MY chickens free range around our house and the top paddock. In over 20 years I have had only one fox attack during the day and that was a poor fox that must have been hand reared then dumped. It had no fear of people or my German shepherds and was so thin. The local farmer shot it when it tried to get his farm cats. I have sheep and pigs as well as the ponies in paddocks. We did not buy our house and land to stand by and watch other peoples dogs roam free to kill.I have taken every care to try and keep my lot safe. It is up to the dog owner to make sure their pet does not roam free and out of their control. The owner is at fault !

[lord flynn]

The farmers round here have pheasant pens in the woods....they put a single strand of electric fence right around at about 1foot off the ground .  They say this allows the pheasants to get under the fence, but foxes get a nasty zap and leg it.   Anyone any experience of doing this ?

yes, I used to do this around my pens where I used to live-lots of foxes, no fox attacks but couldn't tell you if it was solely due to that. I ran mine off small energisers and they packed a bit of a kick on a single strand.

[Lesley Silvester]

It's beyond me how anyone can say that stufe35 is entirely at fault. His hens were on his land. The law states that dogs should be kept under control. He didn't invite the dogs in to play with his hens, the dogs were out of control. A fellow goatkeeper near me had two goats killed by a pair of large dogs. Was she at fault for not keeping her goats in? Of course not. The owner of the dogs was at fault for not making sure they didn't get out. And yes, I know that accidents happen but you can't arrange your whole life trying to prevent an accident unless you want to surround your entire property with eight foot high walls.

[devonlady]

Maybe some boards around your land stating that any dog found worrying livestock WILL (not may) be shot! And, it's not always city types and their pampered dogs that cause trouble, my flock of tiny Ouessants were killed by a neighbours working collies. A door left unlatched, bored dogs and that was that. The owner was as gutted as I was but I held nothing against him and we remain good friends and neighbours.
As to foxes, I had, at huge expense an enclosure made which is half the size (or more) as a football pitch, clad in deer netting, eight foot high and hung about with the hated barbed wire. It didn't work and all due to released orphan and urban foxes!! You know who they are, they come up to you and say "got any dog food". They scaled netting and barbed wire frequently in daytime and killed everything there. I also don't hold a grudge against the poor foxes who were doing as we would in desperation, but the kind, misguided actions of the "cuddly" fox lovers.