[Polyanya]

I've had my goats for over a month now and still think they're amazing creatures - just a quick question about concentrate quantities for Goldens - I've been giving them what the breeder showed me which is basically a couple of handfuls each of sheep crunch, do I increase the amount as they get older and bigger? They have ad lib hay and access to grazing if they want to.

[cuckoo]

I am sure Anke will advise further but sounds like you are on the right track - just watch sheep feed doesn't have copper in it so a red rockie mineral lick out of the way of any sheep would be advisable too

[Anke]

Right now, unless they are milking and are therefore on a proper milker's ration, only very small quantities of concentrates are required. Feel their spine (as would with sheep) and there are guidance drawings on condition scoring goats on the web too. You want to be able to feel the transverses, but not too sharply - get a copy of David Mackenzie's Goat Husbandry (5th edition) via www.abebooks.co.uk. It is easy to get GG's going fat - much easier than BT's for example.... Also a good handful of horse/pony carrots (chopped into thin sticks rather than slices), or cabbages or bananas, apple slices (not too many - quite acidic) are welcome. Mine do not get concentrate at this time of year, just some soaked sugar beet shreds with a dusting of rolled oats. Concentrate will be re-introduced 6 - 8 weeks prior to kidding/milking. Growing kids will still get a good handful of baby calf mix or dairy nuts until the end of their second summer ((just before mating) as they are still growing. Then diet!

Once they are in milk you may want to try feeding them on dairy cattle/calf feed (either mix or nuts) if you can get it up your way, if not sheep mix is fine. You will need a Red Rockie lick in any case, they will ignore it for most of the year, but mine do lick it when they are in kid and when milking first. Goats do need higher copper than sheep do, and the RED Rockies (not the yellow ones!) will provide that. Sheep should NOT have access to the red rockies though, same goes for cattle feed. If you have sheep and goats together it is safer to stick to sheep mix. But as there are cattle on Shetland you should also be able to buy cattle/calf feed.

Hope this helps...

[student]

This is always an area of interest what would a milking goat feed be if one had say 16% dairy nut some sugar beet and haylage or would hay or barley straw be better often talk about feed at collage but never for goats
  many thanks the student

[Talana]

Mine at the moment get a handful of soaked sugar beet or chopped carrots alternatively am & pm. The in kid ones that are dried off as Anke's get a dusting of oats or bruised barley. The one I have running through gets some 18% ewe nuts as does the  remaining female kid. They have ad lib hay water and access to yellow and red rockies also tithebarn pre calver cattle minerals. The 6 weeks before kidding I gradually increase ewe nuts and they get some molassses and week before and week after kidding no ewe nuts but oats /barley instead then gradually increase ewe nuts (helps prevent milk fever). Chopped carrots and whole neeps till the grass grows.
I follow the British Goat Society guide (they sell a book on feeding goats on their website) 500g for maintenance and 200g per kilo of milk. (also a maximum or milkers of 200g dry weight of beet) I find mine go off cattle feed quickly although some keepers do well with them using dairy cow nuts (not readily available where I am you would have to order it specially) and ewe nuts most economical and palatable and via milk recording it's best for quantity and quality of milk. You can use 16% but depends on quality of forage. I usually use 18% and can reduce by adding oats/ barley. Kids need feeding well while they are still growing. Males get a mix of 16% lamb finisher (do not give ewe feeds to males)and some barley small amount of beet / chopped carrots. Some straw can be given for variety I use it more in the summer to help balance lush spring grass.

[Talana]

Also student I have found using a product not designed for milk results in poorer yield and quality of milk for example 16 % lamb finisher / lamb /calf creep or general goat mix. Dairy nuts or ewe nuts better either 16 or 18%. goat mix is good but is aimed for general goats and not  always suitable for some highly productive goats. HAY essential all year round, Straw for variety or overweight goats. Straw good in summer when grass and greenery is at it's highest nutrition and can replace hay then, Keeps good rumen health as with branches when available. Haylage usually has better nutrition but is a higher risk of listeria.

[student]

Thankyou Talana  a lot of useful info have ordered the books from the goat society site as like all students have many questions  are you a large herd of milkers as you said about milk recording I guess a larger herd would or could feed different to a small or someone with a few goats for home use
   Thank you so much for the help

[Anke]

My milkers get a mix of soaked shreds, oats and dairy nuts (18%), same for growing kids and goatlings til end of showing season. Mine do like I'Ansons dairy nuts, but turn their noses up at other brands fairly quickly. If they do go off I replace with baby calf mix (18% too) and gradually re-introduce the dairy nuts by mixing them in (dairy nuts are 50% cheaper). Usually works. They also have hay all year round, branches/leaves/greenery when available and grazing from March/April til September. In winter carrots and cabbages(non-milkers only).

My adult males only get some shreds and oats, won't eat mix/d-nuts....

I don't really weigh my feed, just go by the feel on their ribs. 3 feeds per day. GG's more careful as they tend to get fat, but struggle to get my BT's to put on some cover....

[student]

Thank you all for putting the information on here for us all to use in one way or another in sure Polyanya who started this has found it all great and useful
  Many thanks

[Polyanya]

Thanks for all the input, can I just say mine are all only 7 months old. Anke you mentioned feeding concentrate until their second summer and then diet I think you said. Its just that I think the boy is on a growth spurt and has shot up but actually looks thinner than the girls and I can definitely feel the spine and ribs.  I make sure they have access to willow branches a couple of times a week, I also give them carrots, apples, parsley, borccoli stems (maybe one between all three per day) and off course I give them a dried apricot each per day.
They are very keen to go out and graze and they don't share with the sheep at all, oh and they already have a red rockie in their byre.

Thanks for the book advice I shall check that out.
Looking forward to rereading all this info when my girls are in kid and later. 

[Talana]

Student I have a small pure toggenburg herd at the moment 6 dry milkers 1 milking 1 goatling in kid 1 female kid and 2 entire males and a wether. I grew up on a farm and my husband is also a farmer. Sometimes I buy what is most suitable for my goats from my local country store and other times a pinch stuff from my husbands feed shed but it depends on what he has as some stuff isn't suitable or the goats just don't like it.  Goat keepers can milk record through goat clubs. You weigh the milk once a month take a sample in pots provided, post to your milk recording secretary who gathers everyones and sends to NMR, and processes info back. Goats can receive awards onto their pedigree (non pedigree can be registered in the IR SR register) You get 3 checks a year from say a willing neighbour to give results credibility for the awards.
Polyana glad you enjoying your goats what your doing is fine Kids often go through a growth spurt and seem thinner but they'll put it back on.
 With mine I don't go by their back as they put fat on their flank first then brisket area before they put it on their back also goats store more fat internally than sheep. If their flanks behind elbow is quite fat i start to control feeding as when the brisket starts getting fatty they are too fat. My goatling is on a diet! her sides wobble with fat. You never stop learning with goats.
Goats are individuals as are goat keepers and their holdings, what works for some people may not always work for others.

[Talana]

We had a talk at huntly regarding feeding the man speaking I think works for animal feed company and does the rations for st helens commercial goat farm. He lived in usa with his own herd and worked on commercial herds and has brought wide experience to his commercial rations.  It was a certainly an eye opener how different, commercial herds are fed. We were surprised that the average yield was not that high compared to our own goats.
Anke mine too turn up their nose's at different brands. Once at a show speaking to a feed company and getting a free cup of tea I did stop myself in time from asking does that nuts taste the same as the other, i think i re phrased it as same ingredients, well in the end it did taste different goats didn't like it.

[Buttermilk]

Having worked for 10 years at St Helens I think that I can explain why the average yields are not as high as in small backyard goats.

To start with the goats are kidding down at 12/14 months of age.  They are not expected to milk more than 700kg in that lactation as they are still growing.  There are 5-600 of these each year a large proportion of a 4000 milking herd.

Also there is a lot of unseasonal breeding taking place to keep a steady flow of milk all year round.  Goats kidding in October are not going to give as much in their lactation as goats kidding in March.  These goats are unlikely to give more than 1200kg.

There are star performers within the herd but often they are a nuisance as the goats which give 3000kg, and yes there are quite a few, need special handling after kidding as once round the parlour is not long enough to milk out so they have to be shed out and sent round again.  If the milker is otherwise occupied as they exit they do not get milked out making them worse at the next milking.

[student]

WOW I didn't know that they had their first baby at 12 months old thought would have been older like cows and 4000 goats must seem like a sea bet its noisy and breeding time

[Anke]

Well that's the commercial goat dairying vs the small-scale, often pedigree breeder. It is the same in commercial sheep flocks, a good proportion of the ewe lambs are sent to the tup in their first autumn, to get a single out of them. With careful management their live time output is the same or often better than for ewes lambed only in their spring.