[Big Light]

Quick question - Top Knots in Hebrideans  - where do they come from ? - Do other breed have them?
 [member=4333]Fleecewife[/member]  ?

 see some pics attached if you are not sure what they are
1st pic is a puchase from last year
2nd pic is new purchases from this years York Rare breed sale

[Fleecewife]

I'll need to answer this in stages so first I'll see if the pics come through.......  OK, the top one expands, but just look at the second as is, because if you click on it, it fills several pages.  Beyond my skills.

So, the first pic is the oldest known photo of Hebs, taken in the late 1800s at Storrs Hall in Windermere.  These were sheep brought down to 'big houses' around the country, to grace the parkland.
Take a look and you will see that just about all of them have topknots.  There is a two horn in there, but just about all display the multihorned version.
Another characteristic many display in this photo is the 'silver mantle', which I see as a colour pattern, akin to katmoget in Shetlands (all the Scottish northern short tailed sheep were developed from the same multi-coloured, multi horned 'land sheep').  The silver mantle is very different from the greying which is seen in older animals, and is also different from the greying which occurs with copper uptake problems.

So, nearly all Hebs used to be multihorned, and carried topknots. So it's less a question of 'where do they come from?' and more to do with 'where have they gone?'

In fact, the type of Heb we keep (see second pic which is of Gladstone Brigitte with her mighty topknot) are very like the Storrs Hall photo, which we have labelled 'The Ancient Type', as opposed to the modern Heb, which has been modified by the show ring into an all black, two horned creature, so heavily changed by human interaction.

For the actual genetics of topknots - well, no-one has done enough research into it, as until recently they were not registerable, and were as rare as hens' teeth.  It was also put about that only ewes bore topknots.  However, many multihorned tups have small topknots between their top horns.  Our old boy Gladstone Laughing Boy is our best route to topknotted lambs, especially when bred with our Zanfara stock, or certain of our topknotted ewes.
There are more topknot pics on our website - see below for URL

[Big Light]

 the ewe lamb bottom is a zanfara with 3 0 horns in pedigree with zanfara mother and grandmother and last one being gladstone annette who comes down to gladston disraeli as gs - the ewe in the background has carcross genes which come from strygaled and is v different genetically. The first picture does have laughning boy in at GGs via gladstone blackrod at GS - all registered you will be glad to know :0)

[Fleecewife]

Yes, Louisa bought two tups from us, so her stock and ours are bound to be related.  She is one of the few folk who stuck to their guns for decades and registered topknots throughout.  The pool for buying in breeding stock for the topknot (and polled) trait is necessarily small.  The more breeders who keep them, and are careful about sourcing their tups, the more chance the topknots have of re-emerging.
I'm glad you're interested in them Jack.  It seems that, as with Jacobs, more breeders in Scotland prefer the multihorned version, compared with those in England - just a slight trend so far.  It's also noticeable that most of those interested in the topknots are from the northern half of Britain.
Our original topknot line emerged from the Osgoody flock in Yorkshire (now sadly dispersed) and a ewe called Osgoodby Ceitin Ceithir Adharach (4 horn Katie) who in fact had 6 horns.  We have her daughter, 'Osgoody Ewe' who we call Jezebel, who is 19yo, and passed the trait for topknots, as well as longevity, good mothering, great teeth, amazing feet, to various of our flock members, including G. Laughing Boy and G. Brigitte, photo above.

Gladstone Annette was truly polled, our first, so good for the diversity you have her in your new ewes too.

[Big Light]

This one is a 2012 ewe i guess its more silvering than grey

[Coximus]

I've got a couple of topknotted ewes and this year was good for 4 horns, with all but 3 of the ram lambs 4 horned, and 18 4 horned ewes, some with very interesting "all out like a star" horn patterns, both top knotted ewes are without horns per say-scurrs under the wool tho.

It would be brilliant if more local people to me didnt just keep 2 horned Show ring hebs, as I find they focus so much on looking good but ignor the important bit ; Tough as old boots sheep that just do their job of existing as sheep.

[Fleecewife]

Absolutely Coximus.  Lets change the world 

Scurrs are just a variation on multihorns, which tend to be associated with topknots - polled have no horns at all, nor dips for them in the skull.


Big Light, your pic is of a greying-with-age ewe.  The silver mantle has longer hair which is all silvery, and hangs more downwards. Under their outer silver hair layer, they tend to be quite black ie the under layer, and their legs, heads, collar, bellies, rumps and tails are black.  They tend to be blacker than some as lambs and acquire the silver mantle after their first shearing .

[Big Light]

Thanks will keep my eye out for that - every days a school day :0)

[ThomasR]

Sort of  subject related. Do hebrideans need to have wool on their head. Some of my lambs have just go hair on there heads and looking at some of the sheep at lanark they just had hair as well. Most of my lambs have a little wool on the top of their heads near the base of the horns which I thought they all had to have or am I wrong?

[Big Light]

[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] talking of males with top knots -  here's one of our wether's - he had a notch so was rung,  the horns were therefore weaker and sides knocked off but a definite top knot - with almost ewe like forward horns.
Thomas - the sheep have a varying degree of wool on their head 2 horns generally less than 4 horns - pretty much personal preference

[ThomasR]

Is this just grey hairs. This is my ewe lamb and her brother also has this. They go right down to the skin and only seem to be round the bottom of the neck. 

[Fleecewife]

Hard to tell from the pic Thomas, but it could be a copper uptake problem.  Worth getting your land tested for minerals, and research a bit, for example I think there's info on the Co-secure website.  Lambs don't show the silver mantle until they've been shorn, and they're too young for age related greying.


Big Light - oddly we've noticed that type of forward horns goes a bit more frequently with less than perfect eyelids too.  If the horn buds in a multi-horn male lamb are very far forward on the skull, then it's worth ringing him. When forward horns like that are fully developed on an entire tup it does become difficult for the sheep to eat, as the horns stick into the ground before they can reach it with their mouths.

[ThomasR]

Thats what I thought Fleecewife but it is only the twins that have it.

[Big Light]

Do you give yours copper [member=4333]Fleecewife[/member]

[Carse Goodlifers]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.  Fascinating stuff

[member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] talking of males with top knots -  here's one of our wether's - he had a notch so was rung,  the horns were therefore weaker and sides knocked off but a definite top knot - with almost ewe like forward horns......

[member=16566]Big Light[/member] what do you mean by 'he had a notch'?
And just to clarify - I assume that when you talk about the 'top knots' you mean the wool tuft on top of the head?