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Author Topic: Brinsea Octagon question about fan  (Read 9080 times)

waddy

  • Joined May 2012
Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« on: August 13, 2015, 12:30:14 pm »
Hi all


I have just had my second disaster with dried out chicks failing to hatch in spite of this time incubating at a higher RH than recommended and using both filled channels and a damp cloth at the hatching stage. I know the fan is drying the membranes too much and shrink wrapping the chicks. Given how easy it is to unplug the fan for cleaning the fluff out (another problem with having a fan at hatching time - fluff everywhere!) my questions are; does the incubator still work with the fan unplugged? And does unplugging the fan mean the incubator overheats? Has anyone tried this?


Much appreciated


Helen

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 12:52:46 pm »
I have a Brinsea Octagon Autoturn which I use in an unheated, north-facing outhouse room where the temperature and humidity stays fairly stable.  I leave the air intake half-open all the way through incubation, reduce the temperature from 37.4 to 37 degrees on day 18 and add half a cup of warm water to one of the channels on day 19.  I open the incubator only once a day, unless I've noticed an egg pip but then no progress made for a couple of hours.  I take the rsik at that point that the chick has run out of energy or is too large to continue the struggle to hatch, slide the egg out, carefully break it open and replace the chick.  The chick generally then survives and thrives - occasionally it won't.   Sue Hammon, of the Wernlas Collection, told me they never add water, as our maritime climate means the air is generally humid enough as it is. 

Eve

  • Joined Jul 2010
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 02:23:39 pm »
Helen, maybe give Brinsea a call, I've found them very helpful in the past. I do the same as you re water though I use extra hygrometers to check the Brinsea's readings as they can be quite off.
Did you buy it new or secondhand? The latter voids its guarantee  :(



I definitely add water especially at the end, the humidity here where we live in April / May is only 28% or so, it doesn't jump up to 40% until it's much warmer outside.

waddy

  • Joined May 2012
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 02:31:17 pm »
The incubator was bought new last year in March. I had a couple of fairly successful hatches in it. I have checked the temperature independently which is fine. I have no means of independently checking the RH other than monitoring weights but with the amount of water added at the end it should be ok. The room is an (at the moment) unheated kitchen, not north facing. Although it can be sunny it doesn't get particularly warm and the incubator is on a stone floor (in an autoturn cradle) in a corner that is in shadow. I started at temp 37.5 as per the book with a reduction to 37.3 for hatching. The vent was half open. RH started at 45% but was increased to 50% just over half way through as the weights were going down a bit too fast (although I still had a couple of eggs losing less than recommended; mostly on target around 11% and a few too much). For hatching RH was 75% with both channels filled. I used damp kitchen roll over the eggs at the time I expected them to hatch (although the fan soon dried this). I had moving chicks on day 18 when I stopped turning. When nothing happened on day 21 the following evening I candled again and carefully opened the egg that had lost the most weight to find a shrink wrapped dead chick. I then carefully made air/inspection holes in the others. Only three (of ten) were still alive but just barely. They were all wrapped in tight dry membranes. I carefully made sure they could breathe (very carefully so as not to cause bleeding dampening and pulling the membrane back around their beaks) but they were too weak to help themselves and soon succumbed. I think despite the RH reading very high (to the extent that the readout had condensation) and full channels underneath, the fan is drying the upper side of the eggs too much. If anyone has tried unplugging the fan or has other tips please let me know. I am going to try some more eggs incubated at a 50% RH with some water in a channel from the start. I will keep a careful eye on the weights. I know chicks are at risk if they don't lose enough and get stuck but I would rather help a chick out that is strong enough to make it rather than have ones too weak to live or shrink wrapped dead ones like the last two times. I have to get this right - it is too upsetting and not fair on the chicks.


Helen

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 03:23:32 pm »
For hatching RH was 75% with both channels filled. I used damp kitchen roll over the eggs at the time I expected them to hatch (although the fan soon dried this).

Is it possible the kitchen roll excluded air from the eggs?

Eve

  • Joined Jul 2010
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2015, 03:42:48 pm »
Ah, I put the kitchen roll underneath the eggs (underneath the wire rack).


Were your last two batches from the same chickens?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 03:45:16 pm by Eve »

waddy

  • Joined May 2012
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2015, 04:44:23 pm »
The kitchen roll was just touching the tops of the eggs. The rest was free including plenty of circulation between the rows and round the sides. I am going to try a damp cloth under the tray with some going into the channels for a wick. I am going to try unplugging the fan to see what happens to the temperature (without eggs of course and carefully monitored).


Helen

Kimbo

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Anglezarke, Lancashire
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2015, 05:24:26 pm »
Im very sorry to hear this; how upsetting for you.
I have an Octagon Eco so I don't have a hygrometer in mine.  I have the water channels half full from the beginning and the vent half open all the way thru too. Nor do I alter the temperature. No problems so far ( mind you, only 4 hatches).
I too would  give Brinsea a call. They are very helpful and they at least can tell you what unplugging the fan will do to the hatch.
Is it time to retire yet?

chrismahon

  • Joined Dec 2011
  • Gascony, France
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 05:44:36 am »
Still air machines have to run a few degrees warmer and it becomes very dependant on the ambient temperature in the room. It could be that whilst the water channels are full it isn't evaporating, although if you have condensation within the machine it must be? If the heater is on too much, because the unit is sited in a room that is under 20 degrees, that may dry the chicks out? What is the air temperature in the room?


From your description of the chicks it sounds like they haven't pipped. This would be because the air sac hasn't developed properly because the humidity was initially too high. I know you are weighing them but have you candled the eggs and checked the size of the air sac? The figure I have for weight loss is 11-13%, so you may be too heavy anyway?

waddy

  • Joined May 2012
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 11:45:45 am »
The room at the moment is just under 20 degrees although it would be a bit warmer on a sunny day and has been in the last few weeks so it could possibly be a factor. I did monitor the air sacs and they looked large enough. Four lost between 11 and 12%. Three lost between 12 and 13%. One only lost 9.9%. One 13.4%. The ccl lost way too much at 18%. I don't know why except maybe the shell was more porous for some reason. The CCL and Wyandottes were all good medium sized eggs. Two of the three that nearly made it were two smaller eggs - silkies which I would have expected to have problems with higher weight loss (greater surface area to volume) but they were ok. As the weight loss looked a bit more than I was aiming for in some of the eggs this was when I increased RH to 50% from 45% just over half way and 75% when I stopped turning at day 18. When I made the tiny holes the membranes were definitely too dry and none had pipped internally; as if the fan had the same effect as a hand drier on top of the eggs in spite of the humidity reading and water in the channels below.


Results of experiment; the incubator will work with the fan unplugged and doesn't overheat. However the temperature at egg level is about 10 degrees too low. As Chrismahon says the incubator would have to run higher; a bit too high for me to be comfortable risking it. The temperature gauge in the lid was still reading 37.5 so this showed how important it was to have an independent check at egg level. I will buy a hygrometer to check the RH at egg level as I certainly don't trust the value given on the readout to be consistent throughout the incubator. I have set it up with more eggs; a little water in the channels; a cloth with wicks under the tray and the RH reading 50%. I will try once again to protect the tops of the eggs close to hatching and monitor everything very carefully. I will let you know how I get on. Thank you for your help and suggestions.


 :fc:
Helen

Kimbo

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Anglezarke, Lancashire
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 12:55:33 pm »
10 degrees is a really big difference. Im surprised
Is it time to retire yet?

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 02:55:02 pm »
I usually only see shrink wrapped chicks in incubators that are opened up too often and the humidity lost.

If wet paper towel is drying out the humidity is too low, even with the fan running in a humid atmosphere it wouldn't dry out.

Try minimising the times you open it especially in the final stages, its difficult I know but it will give better results

I open mine occasionally to add eggs/remove chicks but thats it, weighing eggs and candling etc will all reduce the humidity inside the incubator every time you do it and it will take time to recover.

You have plenty of water in your water channels so either there is too much ventilation drying out the inside (vent holes) and/or there is too much ventilation (opening the incubator)

I'd try it without opening it up, forget about weighing eggs, adding wet paper towel etc, make sure the vent holes aren't opened too much and see how you get on.

waddy

  • Joined May 2012
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 04:08:45 pm »
Ok good point. I will only open if essential. Although the Brinsea readouts always seem to recover very quickly it may be falsely reassuring if they don't give a true picture of the real values around the eggs.


Thank you


Helen

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2015, 04:47:40 pm »
Yep my humidity reading recovers in just a few minutes but it can take a good hour or two before the condensation appears on the insides again.

Stereo

  • Joined Aug 2012
Re: Brinsea Octagon question about fan
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2015, 05:15:21 pm »
I have 2 of these and randomly get similar issues. Sometimes good hatch rates but often shrink wrapped chicks. There is a thread on here back along that I put up about dry hatching and weighing etc. and that wasn't a bad hatch but I've had bad ones since and it doesn't seem to be anything consistent. I just wonder if the design makes these machines more susceptible to the environment they are in as I can't seem to find a way to avoid the odd bad hatch. I've also got friends who have had very variable results with Octagon 20s and they can't seem to solve it either.

To be honest I am seriously considering selling them and getting a 190 cabinet model with the auto humidity thing.

 

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