Agri Vehicles Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Odd Question  (Read 10550 times)

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2015, 09:47:23 am »
Yes, if you are unable to get hold of a sheep for treatment or inspection at the time at which it is required then that is a welfare issue.  Leaving animals untreated just because you can't catch or gather them is unacceptable.  A ewe with a malpresentated lambing for example, if you can't get hold of the sheep to assist then the lamb (and maybe ewe) might die; or a fly-struck sheep needs immediate attention otherwise again it could be a fatality.


This doesn't necessarily mean that you need to gather all the sheep though.  If you have a method of catching one sheep or a few of the sheep then that's fine.  The point is you need to be able to get to all the sheep that require attention whenever you want.


I think the first thing that any new sheep keeper should do is to figure out a way of gathering all their sheep in a calm and stress-free manner.  Maybe even have more than one method of gathering.  Shaking a bucket of nuts can work 90% of the time if your sheep are bucket trained, but sometimes they get wise (say if you have to repeatedly gather them) and will refuse even the bucket.

Katrina

  • Joined Jul 2014
  • Cornwall
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2015, 09:48:43 am »
I understand your question Porterlauren, as when writing about the mischievous things our sheep do, it can make it seem like mad people chasing sheep.  :roflanim: 

I think without dogs, most of us have contingency plans and systems to round up the sheep.  In another post, I did say we couldn't round up our lambs, but that was purely due to the fact we had turned up together unexpectantly and thought we may aswell take them now - and we stopped because it wasn't actually a important to do it that day when we could do it more efficiently with hurdles and making a race like we usually do with the pesky but lovable Hebs. (My Dorsets & Ryelands would follow me to work if they could)  I also have made arrangements with the local shepherd that should I have a sheep that really wont come in and it is a health issue, he will bring his dog over immediately.  I don't mean this to sound defensive, just an explanation on how we work round not having a dog.

I do agree if you cant get your hands on them for days when they are sick to treat them it would be an issue.

Thyme

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Machynlleth, Powys
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2015, 10:13:07 am »
I mostly wish for a dog when I'm trying to catch a couple of lambs that are at that 100% pure wickedness age where they don't reliably follow their mothers anymore but they haven't quite learned to be excited about the bucket yet either.

But, when I say as much to my smallholding partner, who has worked on big livestock farms for 40 years, he says a dog would grab them by the throat to pin them and likely hurt them a little in the process, and certainly stress them.  So that doesn't seem like a magic solution either.  Good fences and plenty of hurdles used creatively seems better, according to him.

Also it seems really tame sheep can be more of a challenge for a dog than really wild sheep.  My partner's dog is a herding breed but they haven't really tried to train her for that because their sheep come up and lick her ears and cuddle her -- hard to get them to understand they're supposed to let her herd them!
Shetland sheep, Copper Marans chickens, Miniature Silver Appleyard ducks, and ginger cats.

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2015, 10:27:55 am »
Wish I was closer FW, would love to see your funnelling system.

We are hoping to set up something similar to make handling easier when I'm on my own or when there is a sheep that is not so willing to come to the bucket. At the moment we move the handling area when needed to 'trick' them!

We usually 'outwit' any awkward customers but would like a simpler solution.

Lots of people tell me that sheep are 'stupid' but our girls are very quick witted.  ;D

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2015, 10:41:51 am »
Exactly so, Fleecewife  :thumbsup:

BH can get hold of any of his commercial sheep with a quad and a collie, or sometimes we use two quads and no collies.  Or two quads and my two collies.  Whatever will work best - quickest, for least upset to the flock - for the situation at hand.

I don't do this with my 'fleece sheep', which are predominantly primitive types, as I find it more important that they trust me, and chasing them about with a quad, or letting the dogs bring them down, would be counter-productive, in my view.  Not to mention that the area where I keep them is very varied terrain, not all accessible to a quad, so they would run rings around us if they wished.

We've learned, the dogs and I, that softly softly is the way with these sheep.  Less is more - if the dog puts too much pressure on, the sheep are off and away.  So it's a question of patience, letting them make their own decisions, but making sure that the easiest decision is to do what I'm wanting them to do.

I don't have any pens where they are, so if I need to get hold of one and can't catch it in the field (some will come up for digestive biscuits), then it's bringing the lot in to the farm's pens.  It takes about 30 minutes - it's a fair distance - but they'll follow the quad bike with a sack of feed being rattled, the older, steadier dog bringing up the rear.  I could drive them if I wished, using both dogs, but it's not been necessary to date.

My ladies are now used to the pens and that nothing really horrible ever happens to them, but the lambs take a while to achieve the same level of unconcern.

BH wanted to shed the lambs off when we sheared the adults, so we ran them through the pens as we do his commercials, him leaning over the passageway operating a gate to put ewes beyond, lambs in the pen beside him.

I wished I'd had a video recorder running, it would have been all over the internet by now!   :roflanim:   The lambs weren't missing a beat; into the pen, boooiiinnggggg straight back over the wall and rejoin mum within 6'!  BH continued, unaware of the utter pointlessness of his sorting until he looked up and saw me with tears running down my face  :roflanim:

So, apart from the lambs which had now boinged over the opposite wall and joined the pet lambs in the orchard, and the ones that had boinged over the end wall and joined the group of commercials waiting to be taken back to their field, the lambs stayed with their mums and I sorted them off as I loaded the mums into the chute for the clipping team.  Utter chaos and a lot of fun.  And no harm to any lambs - all rejoined their mums once the clipping was over.

I did want to check the lambs, so we kept the lot in the paddock over night, and ran them into the pens the following morning.  No shedding, just quietly working my way along.  Lambies with their mums, so not frightened, no drama.

I do completely get the point that Porterlauren is making, however, and it is something that I think about.

I do have one pet lamb - Indi - who would, in other circumstances, have been reared by her mum, along with her twin.  But on the day Dulcie Grey lambed, and Indi rejected her, BH was fully occupied elsewhere, using his quad bike; my quad bike was out of commission and the loaner bike wouldn't have managed that track with a trailer on, plus I wasn't convinced I'd get DG into the trailer, even following the other lamb.  If I'd had handling pens down there, that they were used to using, I could have got them into those and caught her that way.  In fact there is a building that we used to use before the farmstead was sold, so I did contemplate opening that up and getting DG and the lamb that loved her into that, then catching her.  But given that I hadn't the use of a trailer that day, and penning her inside that building on her own would have been terribly stressful for her, I decided the easier option was to hand-rear Indi.

If I'd had no alternative, and Indi or DG's life were at risk, then of course I would have opened up the building and used it.  (And cleaned it afterwards, and apologised to the new owners! )

We do have a mobile sheep handling system; the track down there would make it borderline dangerous to take the whole shebang down there but I have taken a selection of hurdles down in a trailer.  The problem with these sheep is that if they are upset, then, like Womble's Manxes, they are fleet as deer, and most of 'em will just jump out of any hurdle pen.  It needs to be a fully enclosed space.


With both the commercials and my fleece sheep, there are times when a ewe or a lamb may be limping and we haven't caught it yet.  So often these things sort themselves, and the stress - to all the sheep, not just the one you are after - of catching in the field would be worse than the condition you are watching.   But if it's consistent over a few days, or worsening, then they'll get caught, one way or another, and inspected and treated.

We still get tourists 'helpfully' telling the staff at the tourist site that there's a ewe limping.  Like we wouldn't know that  ::).  We now try to always mark a treated animal, often not for our benefit but so that the staff at the centre can say that if it's marked, then the farmer has been treating it but it's not fully better yet.  (I wish I had a magic wand too, but most cures aren't instantaneous! ::))


Anyway, back to my fleece flock - ideally I would have some pens where they are, and I may yet talk to the new owners about setting something up.  But, as I would hope is the case with most of us, if I had to get hold of one, I'd find a way, albeit it might be more stressful than I would ideally like.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2015, 01:43:47 pm »

Lots of people tell me that sheep are 'stupid' but our girls are very quick witted.  ;D

The sort of people who think sheep are stupid are the type who think an animal should do what the human wants, and should know the human is only trying to help. 

Sheep are far from stupid, they just don't think like humans.

I always say that if the human in question is clever enough to think like a sheep, they can usually get the sheep to go where they want them ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Kerriech

  • Joined Sep 2014
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2015, 01:44:43 pm »
I have 4 sheep in a paddock. Getting hold of them for inspection/treating is not a problem. They're pet lambs, the biggest problem I have is getting them to go away when i'm trying to muck out their shelter or other tasks.
Recently called the vet as one was badly lame. He came right up to us, and vet treated in the middle of the field while he stood trying to eat my shoe laces. A couple of times they've escaped all I have to do is get an empty bucket and they follow me back to the paddock.
I would say each situation is different, and I definitely don't think my lambs would consider themselves to have a welfare issue  ;)

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2015, 01:53:18 pm »
If I lead sheep with a bucket I always give them feed at least every third time I use it - just dot small piles on clean ground when I lead them back to the field. You can fool some of the sheep some of the time but you can't fool all of the sheep all of the time.

Porterlauren

  • Joined Apr 2014
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2015, 02:49:45 pm »
I see I have sparked off quite a debate! That was the intention, as some of you realise. . . . not to have a dig at anyone, or make any kind of comparisons between small holders and farmers etc etc etc. Its very good to have discussions about these things, that we muse upon, whilst standing staring at our stock. It's not so good to have an argument about them! So I'm glad that most have taken it as it was meant!

I will reply properly to the above (many) points later, or tomorrow, as unfortunately this is just a flying visit!!!


Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2015, 03:07:00 pm »

Lots of people tell me that sheep are 'stupid' but our girls are very quick witted.  ;D

The sort of people who think sheep are stupid are the type who think an animal should do what the human wants, and should know the human is only trying to help. 

Sheep are far from stupid, they just don't think like humans.

I always say that if the human in question is clever enough to think like a sheep, they can usually get the sheep to go where they want them ;)


People who say sheep are stupid are somewhat lacking in the comprehension department themselves  :roflanim:

Is it really stupid to avoid coming in when the big bad predator tells you to? Sometimes when their pals do that, they never come back.    I love reading how folk have to trick their sheep with ever changing ways to get them to do what they want.  Shows not everyone has tunnel vision about the stupidity or lack of it of sheep.  Sheep learn and they learn quickly.    I get particularly annoyed when people say 'sheep are just looking for another way to die', and similar comments.  These folk haven't learnt to 'read' their sheep, and to understand how they think, behave and act, so can miss the signs of illness.  If you fail to understand why a prey animal is likely to hide any sickness from the predator (the human) then you could also miss some more subtle signs of a problem.  And although it's annoying at the time, I love the fact that sheep can read every nuance of human body language, such as if you have it in mind to round them up, or when there's suddenly two of you it's time for sheep to scarper.  That's why we rarely manage to bring ours in with the bucket trick, reliably, when we really need to.  They can see our tension as we 'mean business', even if we try to saunter as naturally as possible.
No, sheep are most definitely not daft.

One of the things I love about TAS is that we can reach a wide audience of sheep breeders great and small and help to dispel the myths.

Cross posted with Porterlauren - you've certainly succeeded in stimulating some good discussion  :thumbsup:

"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

devonlady

  • Joined Aug 2014
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2015, 05:38:06 pm »
I've found you can't trick a sheep twice, the have very good memories!! As well as digestives and doughnuts I use a race made of redundant electric netting leading into hurdles and a feisty pug(!!) to herd them.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2015, 05:42:53 pm »
Yes, good thread! We want to see pics of the race made from digestives and doughnuts! ;D

Tenuously related: We have had runner ducks for four years, and two weeks ago our head drake Gadaffi duck died. Since then, the ducks have discovered out that they can just go straight through the stock fence that separates their run from the garden. It's like they never thought to try under Gadaffi's leadership, but now Bill has taken his place......
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2015, 06:13:34 pm »
I've found you can't trick a sheep twice, the have very good memories!! As well as digestives and doughnuts I use a race made of redundant electric netting leading into hurdles and a feisty pug(!!) to herd them.


That's pretty much what we do devonlady, except we don't make them jump through the burning doughnuts  :eyelashes:
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2015, 06:35:24 pm »
Oooooo ..... I need piccies of these races and funnel systems.

We have had one failed attempt at a temporary set up. The sheep didn't like it! Want to get it right before making it a permanent feature. I need them to feel very relaxed and chilled out or they have a tendency to want to jump. I will consider all suggestions ..... even soft music played to them. ;D

They were very good until this year. Think it could be one wether causing 'unrest'. As a lamb he wouldn't come in at all. He does now but freaks out once enclosed. Have threatened him with the pot but he is a cheeky little chap and has a super fleece which I shall be using for my felting.

My daughter takes on the role of collie and watches him like a hawk. She is very good at blocking his attempts to leap for it!


Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Odd Question
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2015, 07:07:57 pm »
That's pretty much what we do devonlady, except we don't make them jump through the burning doughnuts  :eyelashes:
I reckon a pen of Fleecewife's four-horned Hebrideanss plus a bag or two of stale doughnuts would make for a cracking game of quoits though!  ;D
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

 

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