[Porterlauren]

OK, so this is probably an odd question.

But - would people see the inability to gather in and pen sheep at will, a welfare issue???

[Daleswoman]

I wouldn't see this as a welfare issue - to me welfare is about caring for your animals - ensuring you provide adequate food, water, shelter, veterinary care etc. together with handling them humanely. Can you expand a little bit on what you mean? Are you having problems gathering and penning your sheep?

[Porterlauren]

I was just musing after reading some of the posts on here (and please, no one take personal offence). I have a collie, and although we get the occasional difficult ram, or ewe with lambs. In general, they get penned up when I need them to. And it takes a lot of stress out of it - i.e I was checking one mob of ewes and lambs this eve before dark, and saw a lamb limping. I suspected (wrongly) it had been struck in the foot, so whippet together four hurdles in the corner of the field and with the dog, got the ewe and her lamb penned immediately.

I was thinking about some of the folk who have struggled to get sheep in, unless they follow the bucket etc. And wondered what they do if they have an issue that needs sorting immediately, but not one where the sheep is incapacitated by whatever affliction it has.

I.e if a sheep is struck, and doesn't want to play ball and follow the bucket, and cannot be penned, it cannot be given adequate treatment quickly enough to stop the condition worsening. The options are a ) leave it b ) stress it out by chasing it round and round the field.

Also during lambing outside, how do people intervene if needed quickly?

I can't imagine farming sheep without a dog / dogs (and mine is not trial winning material, just a young bitch with the basics)

I just wondered peoples thoughts.

[Ziggy]

Sorry but I don't understand your point.

We have a small flock of 32 herdwicks, no sheep dog and generally rely on using a bucket. If we see a sheep limping or in distress in any way, we will deal with it, generally encourage it to where we want it or wait till it wanders to our penned area, it just takes a bit of patience and understanding of how sheep think and yes sometimes it can be extremely frustrating.

Now, we are surrounded by "proper farmers" with stocking densities way above what I would call acceptable, leaving sheep wandering about in mud in winter, with no access to fresh water, left to fend for themselves in the worst of weathers and you can guarantee that a significant portion of the sheep limp badly. The one thing they all have in common are magnificent sheep dogs that can round up large flocks and stick them in the back of a trailer quicker than you can say "abattoir."

I prefer my world where it's all about treating your animals with respect, not how quick you can round them up.

[Womble]

Yes, I do see what you mean Porterlauren. Our Manx Loaghtans have calmed down a bit of late, but they used to be pretty wild, and it was 50/50 whether I'd manage to gather them or not.

The one time I gave up in exasperation and called a neighbour with collie, we penned them no problem, then when I went to shut the gate, they all jumped straight out over the hurdles and ran off, one badly cutting itself in the process.

The lesson for me was don't beat yourself up about it; just recognise that you don't have the time / skills / equipment to deal with wooly deer, and buy some nice docile Zwartbles instead!  You're right, it was a welfare issue with us, and I didn't enjoy stressing both me and the sheep out every time I needed to do something with them.

The weird thing is they've calmed down loads since they had their lambs - something that folks on here said usually makes them MORE skittish. Nowt as strange as sheep eh? 

[devonlad]

could not agree more with Ziggy. It felt (only felt , you understand) that OP was having a bit of a dig for some reason. Like Ziggy our "proper farmer" neighbour, with his array of sheepdogs and quad bikes doesn't seem able to prevent half his flock being on 3 legs and other welfare issues ignored. Odd question for sure !!

[bloomer]

It's taken us a year, both me and the sheep, to learn about being gathered. I started with 10 sheep no way does that justify a dog 8 would follow food anywhere 2 were much harder to gather. Now with lambs and stock changes we are up to 22 and that number will go up not down, some serious effort with oatcakes and time plus a change in fence layout means this weekend past we gathered the whole flock first try... Believe me this counts as a major success... Is there still work to be done, yes. Do I need a dog, not yet maybe if the numbers head into the 100's... (that's not part of the plan)

[Bionic]

I can't imagine farming sheep without a dog / dogs (and mine is not trial winning material, just a young bitch with the basics)

I just wondered peoples thoughts.

I think my original post 'oh what a palava' sparked this off. I have 6 sheep, so would hardly call it farming. A sheep dog would be vastly underused if I had one.
I keep Ryelands and they are very lazy sheep and will usually do whatever I need if I get a bucket out. To be honest it doesn't even need feed in it  . We had already penned them easily but when 2 new people, speaking to them in Welsh arrived (mine only understand English) a vehicle and trailer they aren't familiar with and lots of clanging about, they broke out of the pen. thats out fault for not securing it properly.
If I had a welfare problem, and I have had several then the sheep gets dealt with properly and promptly.
Maybe its more about knowing your sheep.

[Marches Farmer]

If you're shepherding 1000 sheep on a mountain you need good dogs.  If you're grazing 4 sheep on a paddock you need a bucket.  If you shepherd 100 sheep on a mountain and expect to do it with a bucket or graze 4 sheep on a paddock and need a dog, you need to sell the sheep.

[Womble]

MF: Nail on head! 

they are very lazy sheep and will usually do whatever I need if I get a bucket out. To be honest it doesn't even need feed in it  .

Yes, I can gather our gimmers using only a bucket of gravel (they're fat enough already). If you spoke to the sheep, they'd tell you that this deception was indeed a welfare issue though!

[Herdygirl]

If you're shepherding 1000 sheep on a mountain you need good dogs.  If you're grazing 4 sheep on a paddock you need a bucket.  If you shepherd 100 sheep on a mountain and expect to do it with a bucket or graze 4 sheep on a paddock and need a dog, you need to sell the sheep.

couldn't have put it better 

[in the hills]

I do understand your point and as a keeper with a small flock of Soay I do worry that if a sheep really needed instant care but wasn't 'down' I may not be able to catch it within the hour.

They can be 'temperamental'. Most of the time with a little thought and planning on our part they will come readily to the bucket but at other times are 'skittish' and it can prove difficult. Sometimes we don't understand what has 'spooked' them.

We try to plan routine tasks well ahead of when they actually need doing so that there is no dire rush.

There is no chance of out running ours on our hilly ground! Not an option. So, they are never 'stressed out' as you describe. Soay do not work well to dogs as they disperse rather than flock and the quad did more harm than good and again caused them to disperse and becom skittish.

We are going to build a holding area between two fields this year so that hopefully they will just run into it as a matter of course and without thinking. This is due to the fact that if they are a bit upset by say headflies as they were the other evening they are less likely to follow the bucket and hence we can't check them as thoroughly as we would like to.


However, I think that most keepers of very small flocks like ours are checking them very frequently, know each individual animal really well and so there is no more of a 'welfare issue' than with large commercial flocks and their associated problems. I have seen sheep, up here, left behind by accident or because they wouldn't come in with the rest of the flock and then spent weeks in a field on their own and with no checks at all. Others limping for weeks before being brought in and treated. My neighbour rents out his land and I told him last year about a sheep that I thought could have strike. Owner didn't come and he had to treat. Plenty of welfare issues there, even when collies, quads etc are used to bring in the flock.

I do accept that we have been lucky that in 6 years of keeping we have never had a sheep limp or struck or needed to assist a lambing ..... due I suppose to their breed. They are difficult sheep in one way but easy in many other ways. And so we are hoping to make a more effective method of catching for the odd occasion it maybe needed when they refuse to come to the bucket.

[Backinwellies]

Maybe a little thought to dog welfare here too...... A sheep dog with too few sheep and little to do is stressed!  So no people with just a few sheep would not be better with a dog!

[Hellybee]

We have over 100 sheep and no dog.  We shearing today and we ll get everyone down with a bucket of noisy nuts. Yes have done the gravel thing before now but yes I think they feel cheated when we do that. 


We ve done the bucket led thing since we got here, they all know the drill.


If I have no nuts to hand and doing checks and worried about one we either track them quietly to a fence line and if that doesn't work there's either a quick run home for the bucket a nuts method In the middle of field and baz tracks the wanted sheep through the crowd or if that doesn't work we drop them to the yard.  We usually get our girl with number one or two.  All ewes are sound, we don't seem to have much lameness at all. 


We also have the quads to come up the back to push on any stragglers if need be.

[Fleecewife]

OK, so this is probably an odd question.

But - would people see the inability to gather in and pen sheep at will, a welfare issue???

Taking the question as written, this could be a welfare issue, in my opinion, if the animals could never be caught up.   If however, you mean that you can't simply walk up to your animals and take hold of them, but have other means to bring them in, then it's just a bit of a nuisance.

Folk seem to be taking the question as a dig at others and I don't think it is, just something to get us thinking.

The thing which does alarm me is when people are unable to round up a struck sheep, and have to wait a day or three before they get help.  As fly strike can kill, this is something which has to be treated as an emergency, so you need some way to catch them without stressing them further.   We don't have a shepherd dog (just an overenthusiastic Jack Russell who loves to help), nor will our sheep come to the bucket when they see we want them in (but will follow us anywhere if they are going to new grass, or being fed concentrates).  When my husband was deathly ill for a long time, I had to devise a way to get the flock in, on my own, calmly (and I can't run)  I devised a funnelling system which we still use, in our smallest paddock.  It works a treat and no-one is stressed; the sheep know where they are going, and trot in if not happily, then at least resigned to the inevitability.  Although there are only some of our flock we can simply take hold of, we can generally get the one we want, plus all the rest - if one comes, they all do  - within 10 minutes.   If it's more urgent than that it's because the sheep is down.   I can't say this happens frequently, if ever, because we treat our sheep preventatively for fly strike, and keep a close eye on them for other problems.
For lambing problems - we haven't had many of those either and have always managed to sneak up behind a ewe we are worried about while she concentrates on labour.

I don't think that saying 'we see much worse in commercial flocks' is an acceptable argument to allow any genuine welfare issues to happen.  This question I think is bringing to the fore something we should all be aware of.  And yes, if you don't have time, or ability, to bring in your flock, for whatever reason, within a reasonable timescale, then you need to think carefully if you should have these animals in your current situation.