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Author Topic: Embryo Transfer  (Read 5840 times)

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Embryo Transfer
« on: June 25, 2015, 10:20:46 am »
The topic of Embryo Transfer came up on another thread, but I didn't want to derail it.

Could someone possibly explain to me how this works?  I'm interested because when we went to buy some Zwartbles recently from a flock disperal sale and the owner told me that any that weren't bought would be sold to another farmer who wanted them for embryo transfer.

I took this to mean that embryos would be implanted into the Zwartbles, but I didn't really get what was wrong with the original owner of the egg carrying the lamb herself?  I wondered if it was something to do with breeding terminal sire rams who can't be born naturally, but can anyone explain?
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Porterlauren

  • Joined Apr 2014
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 10:37:52 am »
Nail on head.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 11:15:50 am »
Sometimes it's to put a big lamb in a ewe that's bigger than its natural mum, yes.

Sometimes - more often, I think - it's to create more offspring from one really good tup (and really good ewes which are hormonally flushed, too) than could be achieved [more] naturally.

And both together, of course.  Huge numbers of offspring from a smallish nucleus of excellent (depending on your definition ;)) meat sheep, embryos carried and lambs born to and raised by other sheep with good capabilities in the lambing and rearing departments.

Same thing's been happening in double-muscled cattle for a while, Jerseys are often used as the recipient / surrogate mother as they have a very wide pelvis and produce fabulous milk which will make a great job of the calves.  More recently, however, the calves have become so darned large (being limited only by the size of the Jersey's birth canal, not that of their genetic mother) that they now do elective caesarians rather than risk the calf getting stuck.  So now there are no limits on how large a calf they can breed, except maybe the Jersey's stomach muscles...  The vet has told us that 2 caesarians is as many as a cow can have, so if that's still true, then the Jerseys are presumeably used twice.   :idea:  I've no idea whether they ever implant multiple calves...

(Derailing a bit, but this is why my not-for-breeding Jersey heifer is becoming boxed meat this weekend, and didn't get sold alive.)

I accept it with misgivings when it's about saving a rare breed or bloodline, and with slightly more misgivings when it's about bringing in 'improved' bloodlines, but start to feel very uncomfortable when the surrogate mothers are more capacious than the natural mothers (for the reasons given above in the Jersey story) and when it is used as a regular breeding practise, when it feels too much like using ewes as a unit of production - real 'factory farming'.  (Echoes of that pig unit in the 70s.  *:shudder:*)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 11:19:47 am »
In a related comment... AI in sheep is an invasive procedure, unlike in cattle.  So the move towards a lot of AI, even in 'common' breeds like the Scottish Blackface, troubles me.  I understand, from someone who worked as a shepherd with SB flocks that were impregnated this way, that the ewes can only be served this way twice, and are then no use for breeding.  *:shudders again, for the same reason:*
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 11:40:45 am »
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 12:47:56 pm »
Thanks all, and for the link WBF.

It doesn't sit well with me though, I have to say. I mean, is there no aspect of nature we won't mess about with for profit?

 
Quote
Recipient ewes are programmed as above prior to E.T.  They should be in good health and selected for ease of lambing and mothering ability.  We recommend programming 6 recipient ewes per donor ewe.  Any changes in management or stress should be avoided before and after E.T to allow embryos to implant.

There are residential facilities available at Newbiggin where donor and recipient ewes can be programmed and managed at your convenience.

They're not computers for goodness sake!? 

Downloading embryo now....... embryo accepted. Congratulations, Ewe are now pregnant  :o.
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Victorian Farmer

  • Guest
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015, 03:00:18 pm »
Womble say you had some medium ewes and you had wonted to get very good stock you could get straws of pedegre stock and get the vet to implant  the staws in youre sheep in spring you would have supper stock all the same.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 06:02:18 pm »
Thanks VF, but I wasn't wanting to TRY E.T, I just wanted to understand it better.

Traditional artificial insemination is at least easy to understand, and I can see why it would give me access to better male bloodlines than I could otherwise afford. However, we already have a pedigree tup who points out that his semen should be perfectly adequate for our modest needs, and is also willing to do the implanting bit himself for free. He claims this will save me no end of bother, not to mention a few flasks of liquid nitrogen!  ;D
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

bloomer

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2015, 07:49:19 pm »
Not to mention Ace is nearly the same size as womble...so may well win any arguments... :-D :-D :-D

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2015, 08:35:15 pm »
And the ewes can take the tup year after year after year...
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2015, 09:01:20 pm »
So far looked at E.T. in women / dogs /cats / pigs / cattle / sheep /horses / goats    ( intresting one of rare Spanish ibex implanted in domestic goats )   llamas / camels  /  big cats  and so on ,  all for various reasons .    IF you had  ewe  cost 10,000 and a ram costing 50,000 which might only produce 2 lambs per year but by  E.T  maybe 20 per year  ??

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 09:12:38 pm »
No ewe should cost £10,000. It's a racket. And it doesn't sit well with the public who see tups being sold for £100,000.

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 09:20:37 pm »
IMO AI and ET used to improve/increase your flock with excellent lines are good tools to use in pedigree breeding - but of couse with common sense as to the welfare of the recipient ewe/nanny.

I have used laprascopic AI in my goats with no ill effect, and would - if I had a fantastic female - be tempted to do ET from her as well. Hoping to do lap AI again this year for my goats - my only chance to use really good males from a few different bloodlines.


shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2015, 10:16:01 pm »
No ewe should cost £10,000. It's a racket. And it doesn't sit well with the public who see tups being sold for £100,000. 
   OFF post , but market forces dictate prices     eg     world records      texel ram lamb  £231,000          sheepdog     £10,000          Hereford bull    $600,000          limousin  heifer    £131,000        goat kid $170,000            lamb  $260,000      racing pigeon   £260,000      race horse   5 MILLION   GNS         20yrs or so  a Suffolk ram  sold for £50,000 and the owner sold offspring  for a total of £250,000

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Embryo Transfer
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 08:09:33 am »
Luck money ;)

And insurance...  :innocent:
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

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