Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: calf not sucking  (Read 16201 times)

pointer

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Hebrides
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2015, 01:00:18 am »
Thanks again for all advice. Tried forcing him to the udder while rope looped around mother's hind legs, but he just wasn't having it. Tried bottle, a little went in but most ended up on the ground. Had to tube again to ensure he and I could go to bed with something in his belly. At least I managed it myself this time after the vet's helpful demo earlier.
Any advice on milking action gratefully received as well. Thanks

pointer

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Hebrides
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2015, 08:15:22 am »
Mum's not so tolerant of me being in the pen with them this morning! I'll need to restrain her more thoroughly. How long after a feed would the calf have a bowel movement? He's had a couple that I've seen, but I assume they're just from the stomach tube feeds he's had, but it would be good to know if they indicated he'd been feeding himself. I'm trying to persuade myself that a couple of teats look like they've been sucked.

trish.farm

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • hampshire
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2015, 08:23:16 am »
I have no experience of what you are struggling with, but when I adopted a second calf onto my jersey heifer last year I followed SallyinNorth's instructions to the letter.  Big bowl of feed, pin behind a gate if necessary, and tie up.  Put the calf onto the back quarter, cows struggle to kick directly behind them.  Hold calf firmly behind bottom with one arm, other hand under its chin.  Have you tried to get the milk running from her teats, and checked she has milk? Before hand milking it helps to wash the udder and teat with warm water to get thing moving, he may be struggling as she is not letting milk down.  It really would be worth trying to milk her a bit to make sure when he does latch on he is actually getting milk.

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2015, 12:23:26 pm »
I've always found, if I'm not sure if a calf has fed, put some milk in a bottle and get it to take some. (Not a lot) If it's hungry, this gets the sucking/hunger reflex going and  it will then desperately search for milk when you remove the bottle. So you then put the calf in with the cow (that is suitably restrained) and it will find the udder for itself.  If it doesn't then feed, then it is either not hungry, or else is so lacking in natural instincts that it deserves to die. (To be honest I have never encountered the latter option!)
It is a lot easier to initiate the sucking response on a calf by giving it a bottle first than by trying the near impossible feat of getting milk from the recalcitrant cow while deftly avoiding her hooves,  at the same time as pushing the calf forward, (while it is vigorously pushing back) and simutaneously guiding its mouth to the teats. This requires at least 3 hands, all working simultaneously and few people possess this ability. :-J
Compared to the above, getting a bottle into a calf's mouth is a doddle. You back the calf up against a wall, or similar immoveable object, then straddle it - one leg each side, and arm round its neck to prevent it moving forward. It then cannot move in any direction so it it easy to get the teat in its mouth. As soon as it has started to suck then remove the bottle, and guide it to the cow where, if hungry, it will carry on routing for milk all round the udder until it finds the teat for itself. :idea: 
However, I would be inclined to presume that if, at this stage, the calf won't drink from a bottle, then it is not hungry, and has fed. Calves of this age only feed about twice a day and then spend the rest of the day laid down. So just because you don't see him feed doesn't mean he hasn't. I would just leave the 2 of them alone for a while and if they both seem contented, her udder isn't distended with milk and he isn't bawling then they've probably worked it out for themselves.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 12:33:25 pm by landroverroy »
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2015, 12:42:52 pm »
That's a good tip landroverroy to get it going on the bottle then get it to the udder while it's in the mood.

I shall squirrel that away but hope never to use it  :fc:

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2015, 12:43:17 pm »
Couldn't have put it better myself, trish ;)

Yes, I would try to wash the teats with warm soapy water, making them slippery (and clean), then try milking them yourself.  She may not be dropping the milk, she may even still have the plugs in the ends of the teats.

I'm surprised the vet didn't check her milk - and then milk her for colostrum and show you how to do that, but never mind.

To milk her, close the thumb and forefinger around the base of the test, as close to the udder as you can.  You should feel the teat below your encircling fingers as engorged - at the beginning, it may not, if she hasn't dropped the milk yet.

When the teat is engorged, you just need to apply gentle pressure with the other fingers - while keeping your grip at the base, you don't want to squirt milk back up into the udder, you can damage her that way - and the milk should squirt out.

Until the milk starts to flow, you may have to squeeze more, however, but do make sure you are stopping any milk that is in the teat from returning to the udder.  Books describe closing your fingers down the teat like a wave - you have the forefinger already tightly around, next close the second finger, then the third, finally the fourth; the milk goes ahead of your closing fingers and comes out the end. 

You shouldn't need to pull at all, and even if you need to squeeze a bit, you shouldn't need a great deal of pressure.

It can help to massage the udder, the prewash with warm soapy water helps too, and you can also mimic the pushing of the calf's head up under the udder.

Once the milk does start to flow, you should need a lot less pressure to get it to expel, and you should have much better luck getting the calf latched on.  Get your milky fingers in his mouth and lead him to the teat; if he doesn't latch on, squirt a bit in his mouth.


Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

pointer

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Hebrides
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2015, 01:07:26 pm »
Roy

Can relate to your second para - I seem to have spent the last 24 hours on the 3-handed manoeuvre, without success!
I've managed to restrain the calf for a bottle, but even then, it does very little sucking - most is just falling out of its mouth while it tries to squirm away. Perhaps I've made the hole in the teat too big? But we are now offering the bottle at the same time as we tube him, in the hope he might get the hang of it. But apart from the first hour after he was born, when the heifer wouldn't let him feed, he's shown no interest in sucking anything.

Sally
Many thanks for milking instructions. We'll try washing the udder once she's sufficiently restrained not to kick. She was leaking milk from at least a couple of the teats yesterday, so presumably they're not plugged?Unfortunately, after being very restless all morning, she's managed to escape from her pen and rejoin the other 2 cows in the field, leaving calf behind - so that's the first task.

Very much appreciate all your help.

shygirl

  • Joined May 2013
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2015, 02:01:21 pm »
when our first heifer calved, she was silly and trying to butt the calf away- to the extent we found him on the wrong side of the fence. she wasn't so much aggressive and called to him but still wouldn't let him suck either. she was in the field but we tied her up and put her behind a few gates. a farmer showed me how to twist/pull her tail and this seemed to calm her down until we stood the calf up to suckle. we repeated this until we were sure he was getting enough - probably a week from day one. she was a new mum and has been fantastic with her other calves.
having lost goat kids that didn't suckle, I wouldn't like to presume they are being fed.

pointer

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Hebrides
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2015, 02:14:45 pm »
Thanks shygirl - can you explain more about the tail-twisting technique - I usually only resort to that when trying to get them to move along a race when they're unwilling, not to calm them down. Does it really stop them kicking too?

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2015, 02:17:26 pm »
Problem is if he IS feeding and isn't hungry, he's not going to suck.

pointer

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Hebrides
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2015, 02:26:00 pm »
That's right Rosemary, it's a bit of a vicious circle. I want him to be hungry, but in the meantime I'm stomach tubing to keep him alive. But I'm not giving him frequent feeds, and only a litre at a time, so I think he should get hungry in between.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2015, 06:28:34 pm »
If I was bottle or tube feeding a newborn calf completely I would be giving a total of 3-4L per day.  Yes it may take more from mum, but that's plenty to keep it alive and healthy.

So if you are feeding 1L frequently you may well be keeping it topped up comfortably - and hence not wanting to suck.

Once he's through the first 24 hours you may need to let him get hungry enough so that he'll make the effort to suck.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2015, 07:04:37 pm »
 I agree with Sally and Rosemary.
 You should not have to tube a fit and healthy calf that is now a couple of days old. And if he won't suck from a bottle then he's definitely not hungry.  I'm pretty sure that if you leave mother and son to their own devices then you will find they sort themselves out very effectively. 
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

pointer

  • Joined Feb 2015
  • Hebrides
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2015, 08:22:17 pm »
He was born yesterday morning. He was tubed with 1l in the afternoon and last thing. He's had 1l twice today so far, morning and 5pm. Will I give another before bed, or let him get hungry?
 I got the heifer in the crush but it's not easy to get at the udder (need to give more thought to design of next crush). There'a a panel opens about the middle of the crush, but that's just behind her forelegs. I can reach the forequarter of the udder and I had a go at milking. She still kicked a fair bit but it generally dies down when I got into a bit of a rhythm. But I can't tell if any was coming out as the light was fading and she kept kicking over the bucket.
I'll keep them penned together tonight and hope for the best! Thanks again for all your help.

farmvet

  • Joined Feb 2014
Re: calf not sucking
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2015, 11:54:14 pm »
Keep feeding at 1litre per 10kg body weight per day at least. He will still suck when hes ready. Some calves are just thick or have had a kick. Most pure Belgian blues need tubed for a week before they think about sucking!
Please be really careful milking through the panel in the crush. Its really easy to get your arm broken doing that.

Has the heifer cleansed (passed the afterbirth)? Some don't let the milk down so well until they have

 

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