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Author Topic: When to worm?  (Read 14778 times)

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2015, 09:55:28 am »
If the worms are resistant they will still be inside the ewe and will carry on their wormy lives shedding eggs in the faeces onto the pasture

The way my vet explained this to me is as follows.

If you have resistant worms, and you worm the sheep and put them straight onto clean pasture, then the only worms that there will be on the new pasture are resistant ones. 

So the reason you put them back on the dirty pasture for 48 hours is so that they pick up some more of the non-resistant worms, which they will then take with them to the new pasture.  Then there will be a mix of resistant and non-resistant worms on the pasture, and if the sheep get wormy then the meds will help.
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Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2015, 10:06:09 am »
Yes. My point is you are not shovelling resistant worms onto the muck heap to prevent resistant worms being spread because they are resistant and therefore still inside the ewe. The action of worming them and then clearing the muck to the muck heap does not prevent resistance.

Every time you give a wormer you select for resistance inevitably and the proportion of resistant worms in the population shifts towards resistant.   

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2015, 10:54:21 am »
Every time you give a wormer you select for resistance inevitably and the proportion of resistant worms in the population shifts towards resistant.

So the idea behind putting them back on the dirty pasture for a bit is so that they pick up some of the old worms again, which then remain in the population and compete with the resistant worms you weren't able to kill. This competition then slows the rate at which the resistant worms become dominant. Is that right?
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2015, 11:09:02 am »
If the worms are resistant they will still be inside the ewe and will carry on their wormy lives shedding eggs in the faeces onto the pasture

Cleaning out the pen onto the muckheap will mean that the eggs (resistant or not) in faeces passed while she was in the pen but before being wormed will be destroyed by the heat of the muckheap

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2015, 12:45:35 pm »

 
So the idea behind putting them back on the dirty pasture for a bit is so that they pick up some of the old worms again, which then remain in the population and compete with the resistant worms you weren't able to kill. This competition then slows the rate at which the resistant worms become dominant. Is that right?
[/quote]

Exactly

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 01:26:35 pm »
I worm mine before tupping, following SCOPS guidelines on switching wormer groups and keeping them on the same field for 48 hours before moving to fresh ground.  I worm a day before they're due to move from theie individual mothering up pen to the nursery shed, so any resistant worms are shovelled onto the muckheap when the pen's cleaned out ready for the next ewe.

Maybe I am miss reading your post, but it seems to say that your motivation for cleaning out the pens is to kill resistant worms post-worming which it will not do. The resistant worms that created the resistant worm eggs will still be alive and well in the ewe and will be pumping eggs out as per normal. You are killing a normal population of eggs and there is no particular selection against resistant eggs when you throw them on the heap. Don't want you labouring under a misconception - I'm sure there are other better reasons for cleaning the pens out though!
 

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 05:14:29 pm »
The main idea is that all the eggs, resistant or not, go on the muckheap and keep the lambing shed as clean as poss.

Melmarsh

  • Joined May 2014
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2015, 08:02:39 pm »
Why not collect a few samples from a good number of your ewes and get a pooled sample tested for FEC  then get a sheep vet in your vet practice to advise you ?? That way you only worm when necessary and with an appropriate wormer, you can always retest to check that it is working , check with the vet how long afterwards before retesting. Too many people worm unnecessarily and routinely giving resistance to wormers. Also make sure you know the weight of at least the heaviest ewe you intend to worm !!! Good Luck  :knit:

Dans

  • Joined Jun 2012
  • Spalding
    • Six Oaks
    • Facebook
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2015, 12:30:35 am »
One thing to remember is that you can't fluke the animals as a prevention. The flukicide will only kill the fluke (of the right age) that are in your sheep at the time. As soon as your sheep goes back out they are vulnerable to reinfection.

If I remember rightly Albex is albendazole based and will only kill adult fluke.

Getting a FEC (for worms and fluke - two different tests) before you worm will tell you what you are up against.

And yes the thought behind putting back out on dirty pasture is that they get some of the susceptible worms which can then compete with the resistant worms on your clean pasture. It's often thought that resistant worms have a 'fitness cost' i.e. they are better at surviving treatment but less good at other things in life. If the susceptible worms are better at other things they can out compete the resistant worms in those areas.

For all your worming needs do check out SCOPS, really good information on there: http://www.scops.org.uk/

Dans
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 12:34:45 am by Dans »
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Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2015, 10:15:05 am »
Hi Dans, the last I heard the "cost" of resistance to the worm was thought very low just because when a wormer class was not used for some years on farms with diagnosed resistance there was still resistance to that wormer many years later.

Has a time scale been demonstrated/established now for worm populations to revert to original type and regain susceptability to your knowledge?

Finally and most importantly where is the spell check on this thing??  :dunce:

Dans

  • Joined Jun 2012
  • Spalding
    • Six Oaks
    • Facebook
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2015, 11:31:22 am »
Hey,

I have to confess I am less 'up' on nematodes than I am fluke. For fluke you're right. I think it was in the Netherlands, they had resistance to triclabendazole (active ingredient of Fasinex) on a farm. 3 years later, after using alternative active ingredients to control fluke, the resistance was still there.

I had thought there was some reversion possible in GINs (gastrointestinal nematodes) with some active ingredients but not sure if I misunderstood now. Will check and report back :-)

And no idea about spellcheck. My chrome browser does it for me.

Dans
9 sheep, 24 chickens, 3 cats, a toddler and a baby on the way

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Jukes Mum

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • North Yorkshire
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2015, 07:33:20 pm »
Update - had a FEC count and come back all clear :-)
So at lambing, do I FEC again, or worm at Fluke dose?
Don’t Monkey With Another Monkey’s Monkey

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2015, 10:09:17 am »
Are they indoors or outdoors at the moment?  If outdoors are they coming in to lamb?

Jukes Mum

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • North Yorkshire
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2015, 10:24:09 am »
They are out and all being well will lamb out. We have a shelter ready in case we need it (weather, bonding, problems etc).
Don’t Monkey With Another Monkey’s Monkey

Foobar

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • South Wales
Re: When to worm?
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2015, 10:56:46 am »
Ok, I would still "Inject them with Cydectin 2% LA two weeks before lambing, or at lambing, whichever is convenient."

Because a) you only have one field and b) you had a worm problem last year. Although you don't say what sort of worm you had problems with last year (do you know?).  I would them worm the lambs only with a white wormer in early may (ish) to combat nematodirus.

As for fluke, that is another question - it depends on your local conditions - your vet can advise.

 

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