[Rosemary]

Looks like the Scottish Government may be planning to introduce a Johne's eradication scheme. The BVD one seems to be working well (according to my vet). I guess Johne's will be a longer term scheme but it would be good to see it eradicated form the national herd. Other European countries have done it successfully I believe.

It can only be good for the industry and the cattle affected.

[langfauld easycare]

  its great they are trying to improve the national herd health . only problem with johnes is the test is a bit unreliable (false negatives) or it certainly used to be . 


if they could do multiple tests for various diseases from the bvd eartag sample would be great . if a remember right johnes is only tested for after 18 mnths old .

[Rosemary]

I think reliable testing is still problematic and can't be done until two years old. e're having our four in-calf cattle tested this month, along with the calves BVD, plus IBR and Lepto. If we're clear, which I hope we will be, I hope it will be a selling point when I come to sell stock later in the year 

[Cowgirl]

The BVD scheme isn't going that well, in our area at least - it depends on who you talk to.
The problem with Johnes is that the blood test is unreliable. False negatives are bad because you may have an infected cow and not know it, but false positives are worse because if you sign the Health plan you will be told you have to cull the cow AND ITS OFFSPRING! This is a belt and braces approach which may work in a commercial herd (except the infected cow may have already infected a whole lot of others by the time she is identified). However with a rare breed herd you risk destroying an entire precious female family - justifiable perhaps if the test is correct but if it is a false positive, you will have done irreparable damage to your breed.
If you decide to do it and you have rare breed cattle NEVER agree to cull the cow without a faecal test, preferably a culture, and NEVER have the blood tests done within 3-6 months of a TB test as there can be cross reactions.
I really hope the Government doesn't go through with this - at least not yet. Maybe in the future the tests will be better but at the moment it is a minefield.

[Rosemary]

I can only go on what my vet told me - he says the BVD scheme is going well.

[Cowgirl]

Good luck with your tests Rosemary - hope you get the results you want. We have ours this month - getting very nervous.

[langfauld easycare]

  i think the high health schemes are the way to go if selling breeding cattle , but i buy to many calves in at the moment . i have the second part of my tb test tomorrow not expecting any problems but just in case   

[Anke]

Not quite sure how they are going to work it with sheep and goats, after all they are getting Johne's too.... there certainly seems to be some talk about including sheep and goats into the bTB scheme somehow...

I have the vet coming out soon to do my CAE test, and will have a chat with him then about it....

[Welshcob]

If you decide to do it and you have rare breed cattle NEVER agree to cull the cow without a faecal test, preferably a culture, and NEVER have the blood tests done within 3-6 months of a TB test as there can be cross reactions.

It really depends who you talk to - your vet wouldn't condemn a cow simply because she tested +ve to the Johne's blood test, we (vets) know very well its limits. That is why the high health cattle schemes include blood testing but more importantly faecal testing. You can test the whole herd if you like, will cost more but will give you peace of mind. The dung test looks for the bacteria which is the gold standard, of course if that is +ve then you have your carrier. The culture test takes too long and also often false negative, however now we have the PCR testing which in conjunction with the other two is pretty good at telling who's infected and who isn't.

On another point, the herd health schemes can be as tailored to you as you want them to be, but you must talk to your vet. There are some fancy high health schemes that have the aim of certifying the herd "free" that might insist you remove all infected stock and offspring, however there also other schemes that simply state you can reduce the risk by taking precautions that the test +ve cow does not calve in the same pen as the test -ves so you can prevent spreading. There are other precautions one can take, too long to go in detail here, but also unfortunately we must accept that if we want our cattle to be disease-free we have to put up with some selective culling.

[Me]

NEVER have the blood tests done within 3-6 months of a TB test - tricky in West Wales with 6 monthly testing (or even 60 day tests if you are down)!

There are steps you can choose to take to reduce Johnes and keep your female line alive, some more/less drastic eg. removing calves at birth, embryo flushing to clean recipients etc

[Cowgirl]

If you decide to do it and you have rare breed cattle NEVER agree to cull the cow without a faecal test, preferably a culture, and NEVER have the blood tests done within 3-6 months of a TB test as there can be cross reactions.

It really depends who you talk to - your vet wouldn't condemn a cow simply because she tested +ve to the Johne's blood test, we (vets) know very well its limits. That is why the high health cattle schemes include blood testing but more importantly faecal testing. You can test the whole herd if you like, will cost more but will give you peace of mind. The dung test looks for the bacteria which is the gold standard, of course if that is +ve then you have your carrier. The culture test takes too long and also often false negative, however now we have the PCR testing which in conjunction with the other two is pretty good at telling who's infected and who isn't.

On another point, the herd health schemes can be as tailored to you as you want them to be, but you must talk to your vet. There are some fancy high health schemes that have the aim of certifying the herd "free" that might insist you remove all infected stock and offspring, however there also other schemes that simply state you can reduce the risk by taking precautions that the test +ve cow does not calve in the same pen as the test -ves so you can prevent spreading. There are other precautions one can take, too long to go in detail here, but also unfortunately we must accept that if we want our cattle to be disease-free we have to put up with some selective culling.

Yes it depends who you talk to! The original topic was whether the Scottish Government might be  going to introduce a compulsory Johnes testing scheme. If they do I don't think they will allow "selective" culling, or be in any way sympathetic to people with rare breed cattle.

[Rosemary]

Yes it depends who you talk to! The original topic was whether the Scottish Government might be  going to introduce a compulsory Johnes testing scheme. If they do I don't think they will allow "selective" culling, or be in any way sympathetic to people with rare breed cattle.


Hmm, SG tends to consult widely on schemes like this and I think is pretty good at listening. If we have rare breeds, we can only press our breed societies and RBST to make strong representations on behalf of the breeds.

[Cowgirl]

I really hope you are right Rosemary.