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Author Topic: Starter, grower, finisher ages!  (Read 15316 times)

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2014, 11:35:55 am »
I would give him good hay and nothing else,exept maybe an apple or so.. As I know it a ram will mate with a goat but due to differing chromasones nothing can come of it( (I know there have been tales of offspring but I don't think they are true)
I have known  and kept sweet tempered rams and evil murderous ones . You are best placed to judge which yours is. One thing I will say and that is don't treat him as a pet, i.e. feed him from your hand etc. unless you are certain of his temperament. Good luck!


Thankyou. I can see the offspring being highly unlikely but do you feel I could be quite sure no pregnancy at all would occur? I don't want to put my girls through pregnancy that's doomed to end in abortion or stillbirth :(


Understand your advice about petting him. He is sweet tempered but I'll reserve judgement as he is so young.
I guess his temperament could change yet but at this point in time, he is perfect.

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2014, 11:52:04 am »
Quote from: Oopsiboughtasheep link=topic=50455.msg441872#msg441872 date=


You have mentioned a couple of things previously which I will just select here if you don't mind, to illustrate my point:
'My goats breed which I feel means they are thriving'. Puppy farms breed countless dogs from miserable, sick, depressed dogs who are kept in appalling conditions. They can still reproduce though. I am not for one moment comparing your animal husbandry or obvious concern for your sheep to this, I am only trying to offer an 'intelligent' perspective for you to perhaps consider your comment alongside. I realise that if you didn't care about him, you wouldn't have posted on here in the first place.
'If they can make adjustments twice a year then why not stay on dry?' Animals will make 'adjustments' to the situations they find themselves in to survive. This survival instinct  is both for a physical reason (they don't have any choice) or a psychological one (it somehow makes them feel better..such as with displacement behaviours.. Feather pecking with battery hens...weaving and wind sucking in horses that are stabled for too long, persistent barking in dogs that are stressed etc..etc..)
'I bought him with a view to spinning his fleece'. For one thing, I wish I was clever enough to do that with mine! But for another, I wonder when you will be wearing a jumper made from his lovely wool, if you can always put your hand on your heart and know that it is a 'happy jumper' or if, on reflection, it actually might not be.

I'm not confident that this is exactly the 'intelligent' response that you were hoping for as it isn't specifically 'feed' orientated and I am braced for a cross reply (!!) I know that your enquiry was about 'feed' but you have in fact, opened up an interesting debate (a good thing) because feed is only one aspect of the holistic approach to the care of our animals. My intention has not been to criticise you in any way.



You'll get no cross reply from me! Thank you for taking the time to respond.
The only cross replies will have been aimed at those who came here to ridicule or get on their high horse without actually adding anything at all to what is in my opinion a very serious debate!


I can't argue with your puppy farm comment. Suffice to say my goats are not kept in cages but I get the point you are making! I can only hope that my goats are thriving and content because I cannot ask them. But neither can anybody on this forum or beyond..


Thankyou for having a go at the 'adjustment' query. Still don't feel that between us, we have really managed to explain why sheep can eat dry for half the year and graze the rest without becoming sick and depressed from lack of grazing during winter (and summer in scorching climates!)


I take on board the behaviour problem that lack of grazing presents but if I raise this sheep til spring, on hay as many sheep keepers will be doing, will he suddenly realise the grass is back in other lands and become so depressed he would be better off going to slaughter ?  If the answer is yes then off he must go I guess.
Nobody else will want him for breeding as he has no papers so his destiny is pet or slaughter as far as I can see.




Jukes Mum

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • North Yorkshire
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2014, 12:26:30 pm »
Someone with non-registered ewes may take him. Where abouts are you?
Don’t Monkey With Another Monkey’s Monkey

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2014, 12:37:03 pm »
West mids

Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2014, 03:17:00 pm »
Southdown is my main breed.  Our rams eat grass only.  I would be concerned an uncastrated ram not used for breeding would become very fat after a couple of years.  Rams generally get more stroppy as they griw older.  My son once used to have to carry a metal dustbin lid for protection while checking a 6 year old one of ours in the Autumn.  It's when he takes three steps backwards in preparation for butting you that you'll wish you'd had him castrated or sent him to cull!

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2014, 05:37:32 pm »
It's about looking for the warning sign. Same with handling billy goats.
I'm not frightened of rams and can handle the behaviour side.


Was the diet and welfare I'm fussing over.


He is 7months now.. What do you find is usually the ideal age to slaughter if we decide on that?


Cheers.

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2014, 07:42:02 pm »
It's more to do with his weight and condition rather than age.

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2014, 08:00:28 pm »
Ok so as a general answer messing about with different fruits and veggies (where are they coming from - house left overs?) is probably not a great idea and likely to cause more digestive trouble than it is worth unless they can be presented and consumed in smallish consistent types and amounts. Rumens don't react well to change, a pile of potato today and a load of carrot tomorrow could be enough to see Thumpers digestive transit time reducing rapidly.

I know people with access to waste veg are including it with silage and grains in TMR diets for feeding sheep and there the concern is poor digestion/diarrhoea. That being said if I had access to the same I would no doubt attempt the same...

ps. you can't see the warning sign if its behind you!  :sheep:  :surrender:

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2014, 08:25:10 pm »
Lol! Well if I get kneecapped I will be sure to come back on here and get the 'I told u so!'


I can understand that veg could cause more bother. I was just thinking maybe it would replace some of the moisture in his diet.


He is taking hay well but is really wanting to get to the goats when they have their grain.
Was just hoping the was something in addition to hay that he could have. Guess I'll pull him some grass and weeds.


Would a handful of porridge oats daily be any good?


Reason behind wNting to offer something else is that my goats go crazy for their grain then once gone they settle to the hay. I reckon the lamb will settle into same routine but I can't give him goat mix.




twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2014, 08:53:52 pm »
I wouldn't feed oats, I'm not sure how similar goats are but sheep are incredibly sensitive and will bloat at any given opportunity. Straight grains can cause massive digestive upset. I would see if your feed store have a high fibre type sheep nut that's suitable for rams if you really want to give him something but I'd probably just separate him off at feed time or he will get very fat and bolshy.

Be careful with cut grass too especially if he is not grazing on grass as again that can cause bloat.

As long as he has access to clean water he won't need moisture replacing.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2014, 11:47:44 pm »
Thankyou for having a go at the 'adjustment' query. Still don't feel that between us, we have really managed to explain why sheep can eat dry for half the year and graze the rest without becoming sick and depressed from lack of grazing during winter (and summer in scorching climates!)

I think it's a 'lesser of two evils' situation.  Sheep outside for a long wet winter, especially if windy too, and/or snow which could bury them, may be better off indoors, and it is then the lesser evil.  As soon as the grass and weather are suitable however, they are better off outdoors.

If we were talking 100% indoors then I would also be worried about overheating indoors in summer, but as you say you have a small paddock for him and his companion to roam around in, so it's the lack of grazing that is the main issue.

For me also there could be an issue about how much room to roam around there is - sheep behaving naturally will cover a lot of ground in a day, and that exercise is good for them physically, physiologically and, I would assume but can't know, psychologically.  I see a lot of ponies in tiny bare paddocks to prevent them getting laminitis - well I wouldn't wish laminitis on my worst enemy, so I'd agree that its prevention is a priority, but equines are designed to walk many miles grazing every day, and unless that exercise is replaced then, for me, the tiny bare paddock is no solution.  I intuitively feel the same about a sheep in a small bare paddock - where is his exercise?  Mental and physical stimulation?

Before coming back to you I went away and re-read the government Codes of Practise on Welfare for Sheep.  The first point was that the Codes for *all* species give one of the 5 freedoms as being the company of animals of their own species.  So I'd say another sheep for company would be a must. 

On your point about horses who have a goat for a companion, these are generally stabled racehorses, who go nuts incarcerated in a small box with no company.  It's not safe to have two horses loose boxed, and not always feasible to take another equine companion on all trips, so some folk substitute a goat.  Much better than no companion - but not as good for either goat or horse as each having a companion of their own species.  Years ago, after a dog attack reduced my chicken flock to one hen, until I was able to restock, that hen was an only hen.  She palled up with the sheep, and flocked about with them, giving every impression of being perfectly happy with the arrangement.  She'd come and chat to us, and follow us about, if we went out, otherwise she'd be with the sheep.  When we did get more hens, she left the sheep without a backward glance.  It had been better than no company, but other hens were clearly very much preferable.

Back to the Codes, on the subject of housing sheep, it does not say that sheep should not be housed all year round.  What it does say is
Quote
The greater the restriction imposed on a sheep
through housing systems, the less the animal is able
to use its instinctive behaviour to minimise the
effects of any imposed, unfavourable conditions.
Housed sheep require continuing conscientious
attention by staff well-trained in the nutritional and
environmental needs of the sheep.

The 5 freedoms it lists as
Quote
1. freedom from hunger and thirst
- by ready access to fresh water and a diet
to maintain full health and vigour;
2. freedom from discomfort
- by providing an appropriate environment
including shelter and a comfortable resting
area;
3. freedom from pain, injury or disease
- by prevention or rapid diagnosis and
treatment;
4. freedom to express normal behaviour
- by providing sufficient space, proper
facilities and company of the animals’
own kind;
5. freedom from fear and distress
- by ensuring conditions and treatment to
avoid mental suffering.
(Worth quoting in full, I think, as others reading the thread may not be as familiar with them as you are yourself.)

From which, coming from my admittedly biased preconceptions about sheep, I would highlight

a diet to maintain full health and vigour - which I am not sure a dry diet would do, and it seems that the concensus has been that adding random vegetables would not overcome this

freedom to express normal behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animals’ own kind - to me, normal behaviour for sheep is moving about grazing with other sheep

freedom from fear and distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment to avoid mental suffering - I have a horror of zoos, having seen too too many animals over my lifetime exhibiting very clear signs of mental torment in totally unnatural unsuitable internments, and it would worry me that a small bare paddock and access to a shed would be at that end of the spectrum for a sheep. 


However, all of which said, you seem to be prepared to get him a companion of his own species (also rescued from death row, I hope, or I'd be in more ethical agonies!), and to investigate dietary variety and I am assuming therefore also other 'enrichment' ideas, so...  One option which might work to give them the dietary variety (not just dry forage) could be roots or cabbage, which you could chop up and scatter, so that they would move around and kind of 'graze' to find them.  Not too much or they'd get too fat, but just a handful scattered widely once or twice a day, to give them some stimulation, exercise and 'grazing time'. 

And my final contribution at this point is about fleece.  Southdown is lovely, although perhaps the most challenging of all the Downs fleeces, being nearly always incredibly, almost unusably short.  If you would like a nice Southdown fleece every year, it wouldn't cost much more than a tenner to buy one.  Your Southdown boy and his companion will cost you around 20 bales of hay per annum, probably similar in straw to keep their feet healthy, a total of perhaps 150kg roots / cabbages, routine meds (wormers, vaccinations, flystrike prevention) - I keep sheep for fleece myself, and I am very well aware that if it was just about the fleece, I could buy the fleeces I want for a fraction of the cost of keeping the sheep ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2014, 08:35:09 am »
Thankyou for your comprehensive reply.


I would hope that if this thread sticks around it could be used to present to other people who come here for advice on keeping sheep as pets.  As a side note.. I hate the word 'pet'.. It conjures images of livestock living in houses and wearing clothes... All I mean by it is non companion animals who have no job!


You are of course right about the cost of fleece vs cost of keeping. It was more a case of wanting fleece from my own animals as that would be quite special.. But as somebody mentioned earlier, it wouldn't be a pleasant experience if the animals were unhappy.


This is one of the worst dilemmas I've ever had! I didn't buy this lamb out of sheer ignorance but he landed up with someone who likes to think outside the box. If he gets sick or doesn't remain settled here then I have made a mistake. A big one. Whether I have saved him from the freezer or not, I still don't know. :(

mowhaugh

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Scottish Borders
    • Facebook
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2014, 10:08:27 am »
Re the vegetables, we do quite regularly use turnips for just what you are saying, replacing moisture in the diet, in certain circumstances, for instance we house our hoggs from the beginning of November to January, partly to teach them to eat silage and hard feed and partly to keep them out of harms way at tupping time, but regularly have problems with water freezing, the turnips mean we have to lug less water about and I think they enjoy them.  Also any sheep who have to be in for more than a night at lambing time are given a turnip in their pen.  We do water them as well, but the old boy who works for us at lambing time said it used to be fairly common practice in this situation to give a turnip instead of water, and I would say they rarely drink much if they have a turnip.

Dogwalker

  • Joined Nov 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2014, 10:32:30 am »
Would you be able to scatter feed without the goats getting it first?

I don't know if it's the same with sheep but with angoras the fleece stays better longer if they're wethers rather than bucks or does.  No job to do and no hormones up and down each year.  Everything can go into their fleece.

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2014, 12:16:31 pm »
Yes, turnips I cannot get but carrots I can do and I presume they'd be equally inoffensive.


With regard to angora goats, they were indeed 'the plan' until this lamb came along to complicate my life!


I must admit I am erring on the side of send the poor chap to his original fate and go back to plan A.


I just don't think I could eat any of the meat because he wasn't bought in for that purpose and I have not remained detached :(

 

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