Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Starter, grower, finisher ages!  (Read 15311 times)

Dogwalker

  • Joined Nov 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2014, 08:47:21 pm »
I'm not going to get into the 'debate' going on but please be very careful of your pygmy goats when they come into season.

A ram will try to mate them,
 they will try to get to him,
 they can cross breed.
Can't remember what breed you said he is but he'll be a lot heavier than them.

Can you  keep them apart for 6 months?

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2014, 09:00:06 pm »
He is a southdown , 7mos old.


I can keep them apart, yes. What would the six months be for?

Dogwalker

  • Joined Nov 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2014, 09:12:23 pm »
How long are your goats coming in season?  September to March??
 Just a guess, I have dairy and angora goats not pygmies but had a very persistent girl last year who couldn't go out in the field when in season because she kept trying to get to the ram.

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2014, 09:18:38 pm »
All year round  :(

Dogwalker

  • Joined Nov 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2014, 09:21:52 pm »
Sounds like it might cause a bit of a problem then.

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2014, 09:49:05 pm »
Will find out about getting him cut tomorrow .. Don't fancy taking risk of producing geeps!

MarvinH

  • Joined Oct 2011
  • England
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2014, 09:59:21 pm »
When you say 'cut' do you mean slaughter rather than castrated? As you will be happily keeping a grazing animal when:
 quote "I don't have any grazing."
really?
Sheep

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2014, 04:43:44 am »
Look.. I'm still not convinced ok.


Too many people having a go and not enough intelligent input maybe?




Cows are grazing animals. Horses are grazing animals. How the hell do you think ranches in the desert and hot climates keep their animals? There are vast lands on this earth outside of your tiny small minded little world where people do things DIFFERENTLY! I'm sorry you can't cope with the idea that there might be other methods of animal husbandry beside your own.




Until someone on here can venture to answer my post about why it's ok for your animals to eat dry for extended periods then have to transition back onto wet in the spring I remain unconvinced. How do you know consistency isn't healthier?


You talk down to me yet you can't see your own method isn't even natural unless you do indeed let your sheep migrate when your pasture is low?




I do care about this lamb. I just want to feel convinced before I choose freezer over full life and at this point I am not convinced by the argument that 'we in the uk have lots of grass therefore anyone else in the world who doesn't, can't keep grazing animals'...

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2014, 09:06:52 am »
As I am obviously not intelligent enough... no more answers.

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2014, 09:09:56 am »
Our cows are housed 24/7 from around October to late March- they are fed a grass silage diet. Yes they are grazers but the majority calve in the winter and they are not hardy native cows but continental crosses, so don't enjoy being outside. Plus they would totally trash the ground due to the amount of rainfall we have here. They are fed grass silage- it is grass but in a different form.

Sheep are grazers too BUT the fundamental difference between them and cows is they are hardy little things and prefer to be outside. If the weather is a bit rubbish they will put their bums in the hedge and sit it out. They will only eat hay if there's no grass available. I brought my lambs in for fly strike treatment the other day and they had to stay in slightly longer than expected as it rained heavily, they were housed in the hay shed and quite literally had a wall of hay (stacked bales) to chew through. But they were desperate to get out and the minute they hit the grass again it was heads down and chewing.

Grass, hay, silage, haylage it's all grass at the end of the day just in different forms,, with sheep it boils down to the fact they are outside grazing animals and it is totally un natural to be inside on hay 24/7.

Jukes Mum

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • North Yorkshire
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2014, 09:26:05 am »
I think the point which is being missed here Luce, is that yes, you can keep a sheep indoors/in a small enclosure and only feed it dry food, just like you can keep a chicken in a rabbit hutch, or have a dog and not walk it. But it's not ideal. Personally, I (and others on here it would seem) would prefer to have the animal in the freezer than living in those conditions.
Don’t Monkey With Another Monkey’s Monkey

devonlady

  • Joined Aug 2014
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2014, 09:45:32 am »
I would give him good hay and nothing else,exept maybe an apple or so.. As I know it a ram will mate with a goat but due to differing chromasones nothing can come of it( (I know there have been tales of offspring but I don't think they are true)
I have known  and kept sweet tempered rams and evil murderous ones . You are best placed to judge which yours is. One thing I will say and that is don't treat him as a pet, i.e. feed him from your hand etc. unless you are certain of his temperament. Good luck!

Oopsiboughtasheep

  • Joined Aug 2014
  • Hampshire
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2014, 10:18:23 am »
Hello Luce747,

This is a bit long because I have thought long and hard about whether or not to do this, so I apologise if it sounds rambly and everyone else can ignore it!

I have been following this post with interest as I too, have recently bought 2 sheep the same age as yours, ewes as advised by the lady that I bought them from. She advised against me having even a castrated Ram for all the reasons posted here by others. I, like you, would consider mine 'pets' on the basis that I don't intend to eat them but I primarily got them as 'mowers' for my paddock. I thought they could do me a favour in helping to keep the grass down a bit and I could do them one as they would avoid the abattoir and could live a long and very happy sheep life here. That's not to say that I don't respect everyone on here who breeds sheep for meat. What I do understand from them though, is that their primary concern (in addition to and not as a secondary consideration) is that their sheep live a 'happy' and full natural as possible sheep type life before they send them off to very well regulated premises, that also do their best to limit animal 'distress'.

Bear with me...I'm trying to present an 'intelligent' perspective (!!!)  as you have asked very specifically for one.

My primary consideration when I bought my sheep was 'can I give them an appropriate, sheeplike, HAPPY home?' I gather they can live for in excess of 15 years if kept as pets (if I don't kill them from fly strike!). You have taken the trouble to ask advice on here about the 'health' of your lamb and have received responses from some very experienced sheep keepers (I am unqualified to help with that as, like you, only a newbie to this) but I am a qualified animal behaviourist. You have presented the very real, possible and 'happening' elsewhere options for sheep (and other animal) husbandry. I think what we do have in this country though is the excellence in animal health care and husbandry that now places  sentience, the perspective that the animals have feelings and can be happy or sad in the environments in which we place them at the centre of the decisions that we make about how they should be kept. I realise that not everyone does this but they should. They may still appear 'physically' healthy but are we as confident as we can be that they are 'psychologically' healthy? This is EQUALLY important. Because if they are not, they will suffer. We may not see it but it will be there. They may still appear to function well but they have a 'right' if you like, to experience and exhibit natural behaviours as far as possible even if they are going to be culled at a later date. If they dont, there is a wealth of good quality,  evidence based reearch that supports the fact that animals will suffer, even if someone didn't mean them to. Someone else on here has already mentioned the 5 Freedoms and you have said that you know about those.

You have mentioned a couple of things previously which I will just select here if you don't mind, to illustrate my point:
'My goats breed which I feel means they are thriving'. Puppy farms breed countless dogs from miserable, sick, depressed dogs who are kept in appalling conditions. They can still reproduce though. I am not for one moment comparing your animal husbandry or obvious concern for your sheep to this, I am only trying to offer an 'intelligent' perspective for you to perhaps consider your comment alongside. I realise that if you didn't care about him, you wouldn't have posted on here in the first place.
'If they can make adjustments twice a year then why not stay on dry?' Animals will make 'adjustments' to the situations they find themselves in to survive. This survival instinct  is both for a physical reason (they don't have any choice) or a psychological one (it somehow makes them feel better..such as with displacement behaviours.. Feather pecking with battery hens...weaving and wind sucking in horses that are stabled for too long, persistent barking in dogs that are stressed etc..etc..)
'I bought him with a view to spinning his fleece'. For one thing, I wish I was clever enough to do that with mine! But for another, I wonder when you will be wearing a jumper made from his lovely wool, if you can always put your hand on your heart and know that it is a 'happy jumper' or if, on reflection, it actually might not be.

I'm not confident that this is exactly the 'intelligent' response that you were hoping for as it isn't specifically 'feed' orientated and I am braced for a cross reply (!!) I know that your enquiry was about 'feed' but you have in fact, opened up an interesting debate (a good thing) because feed is only one aspect of the holistic approach to the care of our animals. My intention has not been to criticise you in any way.
And finally, as you have spinning talents, which I do not (!!) and if you decide ultimately that a different home might be your choice for your lamb (if you don't eat him) I will have 2 fleeces that I won't have any skills to do anything with if you're interested! Otherwise, I have been thinking loft insulation.......!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 10:43:45 am by Oopsiboughtasheep »
Anything that costs you your peace is too expensive

Jukes Mum

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • North Yorkshire
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2014, 10:27:55 am »
Oopsiboughtasheep- I wish there was a 'like' button.
Don’t Monkey With Another Monkey’s Monkey

Luce747

  • Joined Jan 2011
Re: Starter, grower, finisher ages!
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2014, 11:28:03 am »
Grass, hay, silage, haylage it's all grass at the end of the day just in different forms,, with sheep it boils down to the fact they are outside grazing animals and it is totally un natural to be inside on hay 24/7.


I'm having trouble getting the indoor thing across. He is not kept indoors. All I mentioned was that my goats have access to an outbuilding for shelter. They are also locked in it at night with my poultry, for security ..because I protect my animals from predators as per one of the five freedoms.


But that could be a whole other debate! Nobody who keeps their sheep loose will want to talk about 'that' Freedom!


So to clarify, he is not kept indoors. He has a small paddock to roam in but it's all I have and there is no grazing because the hoof-fall prevents grass from growing.. Plus I have chickens who also make it impossible for grass to grow in.


Can understand your argument about the act of grazing. Even if hay can be a dietary substitute, I cannot fix it to the ground so he can graze it like he would grass.

 

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