[SallyintNorth]

I was given one already-working dog - and he taught me a lot! Still think of you, Ted  - by a farmer who did sheepdog trials; Ted was a good worker but not trials material, and as we needed two, I also went on a 'sheepdog experience' day with a fella who trains and deals (as well as trials.)  We worked his dogs that he had at the time, many of whom were for sale.

He had earmarked Jaff for me, an 18 month old Killibrae-bred dog, and he was a super dog, but I knew that he'd have had the beating of me for where I was in working collie handling at the time.  Skip, a semi-trained 2-year old Alan had only bought as he was penmate to Jaff, was an easier dog, we clicked and I knew I would be able to handle him.  I've never regretted that choice  .

I had also been offered a working dog that didn't suit the farmer who had her - too soppy for him, he said she was a "woman's dog" - and she'd have been great for working in fields but I wasn't sure she'd cope with hundreds of acres of moorland.

So you can find part-trained dogs that are perfectly fine, just haven't suited whoever owns them.

When I knew enough to have some confidence I wouldn't ruin a pup, I got Dot.  Any problems she has are all my fault - I can't blame her previous training and handling!  lol

[AndynJ]

We bought the best we could find, I trained through reading/watching then at 2 years old (now) I am going on a course 11th May for 10 weeks £90 I think that's a great investment in my dogs health & happiness

Old wives tale if the roof of their mouth is black they will work

[langfauld easycare]

yip i agree with sally .sometimes the dog and owner just dont gell goes to someone else and is a great dog. however you can buy someone elses problems to . my first dog merc was 8 when i bought him (glens dad) an old red dog was hard as iron but stubborn (red head ) . i could tell when he was in one .i would send him out the left and he would go right  . if he didnt like the way you were doing it he would just go and lie down in the huff .but again once you realise whats going on you can work round it .
something else to remember some of the top trial dogs are no use as everyday workers .,more than a dozen sheep and they are beat . also some people selling dogs will let you see it working but only at the thing its good at concentrating on that and it makes the dog look great till you try another task and its hopeless .
most i no will take your money and give you a week if the dogs not suitable will take it back refund the money .
another thing i found when training glen was he got on better on his own, if old merc was there he would hold back .
i have glens daughter a lovely red bitch called fly she is about a year old but isnt showing much interest . she showed more interest at 8 weeks when we got her back as stud fee trying to heard the goats we had which i never checked her for .
its like she is more worried to get a row hopefully she will come good  .sometimes it just like switching on a light .she would make a good agility dog as girls have her jumping through tyres and onto trailers etc.
another thing its worth remembering they are not machines and have of days just like us. usualy when you are in a hurry to get loaded for market. 




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[langfauld easycare]

We bought the best we could find, I trained through reading/watching then at 2 years old (now) I am going on a course 11th May for 10 weeks £90 I think that's a great investment in my dogs health & happiness

Old wives tale if the roof of their mouth is black they will work

yea always told that one as a kid red dogs roof of mouth was pink .to be fair if picking a pup i do still check just incase

[plumseverywhere]

Has anyone had success with a cross breed as a sheep dog? reason I ask is because our 18 month old is showing a keen interest in keeping the flocks (sheep and chickens) in one place.  He's proved very easy to train and has a thirst to learn, be kept active (physically and mentally) and I do believe he was 'sired' by a local working collie.
There was a rumour that he was a samoyed cross but I'll stick a pic on here and let you decide what you think he is

[SallyintNorth]

Collies have a lot of instinct - many come out of the womb knowing how to move sheep, really they do, all the trainer has to do is "put a word on it" so they can ask for that behaviour again. 

But there's no reason a crossbreed can't be trained to work your own livestock. (Given that I know you to be a very careful and considerate owner who won't take risks with your dog near other people's livestock!)    It won't  be the same as a 100% working collie from working lines, but any dog, any breed, can be trained to go around sheep - or ducks, goats, or anything else - and so on.  The chap I bought the moorland farm from had a 'proper' working collie, plus they used their Jack Russell to help in the pens.  He knew 'Come By' (clockwise around the sheep), 'Awaaay' (anticlockwise around the sheep) and 'Lie Down' (stop where you are and stare at the sheep), and of course 'That'll do' (come back to me.)   

I had a collie cross rescue dog who hated to see livestock 'untidy'   - and was very very good at rounding them up into a nice tidy circle!

I didn't farm at the time, so lovely Horace had to be taught that it was naughty to even look at sheep. 

I often think how happy he'd have been to be with me now, and allowed to work the sheep!

[plumseverywhere]

Thank you for your reply Sally - that's really good to know.  He is so keen to 'work' and he's one of these dogs that is glued to my side (I cant' even move my car off the drive to let hubby get his car out without murphy having to join me)
We completed the 'sheep safe' course last year and I will contact the lady who ran that to discuss further training now that Murphy is that bit older and (hopefully)  coming out of the terrible teens - he's certainly got fantastic recall now, even with distractions and I'm sure you probably remember me tearing my hair out that this would never happen!

[SallyintNorth]

Good plan to go back to the sheep safe trainer

You've worked very hard with Murphy and your persistence has been amply rewarded 

[shep53]

Good luck with your puppy, don't know why but the % of useless puppies seems to be increasing maybe trialling or  a limited gene pool ??  I always used to buy   6- 12mth old untrained but showing the right abilities never had a dud then in about 98 I started buying a puppy every 2 yrs, out of 7 pups    4 good enough to keep  and 3  I was very lucky to give away as pets .(   pedigree trialing stock /  one parent pedigree /  non pedigree  ) makes no difference , so now ive gone back to buying youngsters ready to go . 

[langfauld easycare]

Has anyone had success with a cross breed as a sheep dog? reason I ask is because our 18 month old is showing a keen interest in keeping the flocks (sheep and chickens) in one place.  He's proved very easy to train and has a thirst to learn, be kept active (physically and mentally) and I do believe he was 'sired' by a local working collie.
There was a rumour that he was a samoyed cross but I'll stick a pic on here and let you decide what you think he is

when you look at the top picture you can see collie in it . my friend near avonbridge had a collie x doberman which worked sheep well . it looked like a pure doberman but had a small white white diamond on its chest . it was a sight to see . people used to stop thinking that the sheep were being worried .quite a basic worker but good .

[plumseverywhere]

Has anyone had success with a cross breed as a sheep dog? reason I ask is because our 18 month old is showing a keen interest in keeping the flocks (sheep and chickens) in one place.  He's proved very easy to train and has a thirst to learn, be kept active (physically and mentally) and I do believe he was 'sired' by a local working collie.
There was a rumour that he was a samoyed cross but I'll stick a pic on here and let you decide what you think he is

when you look at the top picture you can see collie in it . my friend near avonbridge had a collie x doberman which worked sheep well . it looked like a pure doberman but had a small white white diamond on its chest . it was a sight to see . people used to stop thinking that the sheep were being worried .quite a basic worker but good .

   that's really positive to hear.  I have a feeling this one will be basic but he's keen for sure.

[Castle Farm]

I run 3 working dogs and they are all different personalities. You won't find what your pup is like until he/she grows up a bit and has the confidence to handle the sheep.
Try to get a pup from working stock, as opposed from 'farm dogs' which many are bloody useless. There are lots of collies out there that are allowed to breed without thoughts of where they will end up. To many they are just pocket money alongside the rest of the farm livestock.


Before you buy a pup you need to see both it's mum and dad working and if you can't leave it there. Your going to need to spend a number of weeks on yard work teaching your pup the basics before ever showing the pup sheep.


The last pup I got cost me £100, both his mum and dad were registered, but he wasn't. He is now almost 2 years old and I turned down £1000 for him off a local farmer the other week. He will need another 6 months or so before I'm satisfied he will replace my older dog Ben..Ben is a natural working collie and the sort that comes along very very rarely.


Take your time, as if you buy a wrong one your going to be in an awkward situation.

[SallyintNorth]

Ben is a natural working collie and the sort that comes along very very rarely.

Treat yourself to a Killibrae dog.  Derek only breeds from dogs which are registered and work well on the hill, as well as in trials or have trials potential.  Of course any litter could include a non-worker or two, but if thoughtfully bred that should be a rarity.

[ScotsGirl]

If you get a pup what age should you allow it round sheep? We had one from parents who came from working stock but didn't work. He watched the chickens and was always trying to move them around but take him in with a couple of sheep and he would hide from the lambs. He was only 6 months by then but didn't seem too interested in chasing or trying to round up. Does this not happen until older?


I don't need one at the moment but keen to know what to look for and how to get going especially as I don't have another to learn from.

[SallyintNorth]

Very experienced handlers may take quite a young pup to sheep, but they know how to be sure the pup doesn't get a fright and get put off - and also how to protect the sheep! 

Some people say that some dogs show no interest until 18 months and then suddenly switch on.  Others reckon if they aren't interested in sheep at 6 months they never will be.

I took Dot to one of Derek's training days to get him to help me start her.  (That is, to give me the confidence to start her .)  Worth every penny and then some  - I'd never have had the guts to let her do what came naturally off lead without him showing me how to manage it.

If you can get a copy of Derek's DVD "The Shepherd's Pup", that will give you some ideas and some training you can do before the dog gets with the sheep.  (And also some things to not do with a pup that'll be working sheep )

But as has been said before, all trainers have very different systems and styles, so you can get yourself - and your dog - in a real old muddle if you watch /read / use material from several different trainers.  So ideally, pick a trainer whose style you like and who is near(ish) to you, and stick to their advice