[Blacksheep]

Hello
We live in the Clun Forest area, so quite a few Clun sheep about here. We started with a couple of 2 to 3 day old cades that turned up in our fields and were not taken in by the farmer, we then decided that we wanted to keep sheep but pedigree was the way to go on a relatively small acreage.  We liked the temperament of the Zwartbles sheep, having looked at lots of breeds at the Royal Welsh,  and then found some for sale locally so got started with a pedigree flock.  They are a lovely breed to own due to their friendly natures and as already said by smee the meat is excellent, they don't produce the best butchers carcase so you may be penalised at market, however they can be taken to a heavy weight without going overfat unlike many other breeds so one carcase can produce plenty of meat.  Well marked good quality and well grown lambs can fetch very good prices at sales, so they always the opportunity of a few of the best breeding stock lambs making a good price for you if you have an MV accredited flock. 
I spin and there is variation in the quality of the fleece, but am a bit surprised that Sally has found the fleece a has a short staple, nearly all of ours have a fairly long staple for a shortwool with a good crimp and have won and been placed in fleece classes against other breeds. Zwartbles wool definitely does felt but is a little slower to felt, it was a desired fleece by a local felting mill when it was operating.

We recently decided that we would start a native breed flock, we had to choose a breed that had MV accredited flocks due to keeping our Zs accredited so were fairly limited, this gave us both Cluns and Shropshires to choose from.  Whilst Cluns should really have been the best option due to us being in the uplands of the Clun Forest in the end we chose Shropshires due to a more proactive breed society and the breed producing quickly and producing easily fattened lambs, they also have a good niche marked for grazing in trees. Clun lambs take longer to finish and our commercial farmer neighbour had stopped keeping them due to them having a narrower pelvis. However other local farmers still keep the breed, they also have a good soft fleece, although shorter staple than Zwartbles. The Shropshires have a good fleece too and the society is encouraging performance recording and hopefully the breed is developing to have a niche commercial future.

If you can find local flocks of the breeds you have shortlisted it would probably be worthwhile to arrange some flock visits to help you decide which breed would be most suited to you and your set up. There are plenty of Zwartbles breeders up in Scotland, I am not sure about Cluns though. I would also advise going to the breed sales to get an idea of the stock/type that does well.

[SallyintNorth]

Blacksheep, I'd love to have a bit of fleece from you to try (happy to pay) - I base my comments on the 4 fleeces I get each year from the Zwartbles wethers at the Chariots of Fire Driving team.  If they're not representative...      Maybe they get singed during those displays...    (just kidding!  )

[Blacksheep]

Hi Sally I would be happy to send you some to try, a shearling fleece would probably be best, unfortunately I am not sure what they will be like this year with all the rain we have had, it affected the fleeces that we had a couple of years ago when we had a lot of spring/summer rain prior to shearing. Will see what we have left from last year. I am looking forward to trying our first Shropshire fleeces this shearing too
I wonder if they shear the driving team fleeces ( oh yes JHunter zwartbles are very versatile and can be trained in harness!!) more than once a year to keep them comfortable for the driving, as they are not a breed with a short staple, each sheep produces around 4kg + of fleece at shearing.

[BALLOCH]

I have bred pedigree zwatbles and yes great friendly sheep ,but not really for the fat market unless x too exspensive for 1 thing and if left entire the boys don't fatten easy as keep growing.Stock at markets is cheaper but breeders keep there best marked sheep and im amazed what rubbish people will buy at sales and still pay over prices.These sheep are best kept on good grass to do well,we have poor grazing and so deciced to sell as they can eat you out of house and home.A neibour has cluns but has a closed flock of not many ,don't think u will get up here.If ure going to be crossing don't see the point buying pedigree sheep to breed fat lambs.

[SallyintNorth]

They definitely shear them once a year only, and yes, the fleeces are HUGE! 

When I say short, I don't mean 2"- it's long enough to card but not really a combing length.  Not particularly crimpy - not compared to a Shetland or a Blue-faced Leicester.

Please don't send me an entire fleece     - I have SO many fleeces!  (I am *way* past 'SABLE' - Stash Beyond All Reasonable Life Expectancy' .)  But I'd love a few hundred grammes, just to see

[Azzdodd]

I have just bought a flock off pure bred zwarbles having had experience with some crosses etc.....I bought 3 ewes with lambs one with twin ewe lambs others with singles ewe and ram lamb. They are a good sheep to handle lamb easy good milky mothers.

[JHunter2013]

Yeah, I'm thinking we might get a few 'fat lambs' and breed from them to help us get started and then introduce a few pedigrees as we go on.

And I forgot to put the picture on! Here we go now This is Ali Baa Baa

[Womble]

We even looked at using a Lleyn tup on some of our ewes.  The only real criticism is the multiple births - but then they were pretty good at rearing triplets.   However, for us, as we mix the breeds in our commercials, the multiple births are a problem so we haven't bought any more Lleyns.

Sally - what's the issue of multiple births if they've got the milk and mothering instinct to cope with them? Also I'm not understanding the difference that crossing them makes here?  Thanks!

[Ladygrey]

I had some Zwartbles last year wich I crossed to a charolais tup alongside my shetlands

What I found were upsides

Very friendly and easy to move around
Pretty
Huge fleece for doing things with
Grew moderately fast
Had lots of milk
Had long sexy legs

What I found were downsides to me

Got fly strike when my other sheep didnt (not saying zwartbles do this, just mine did)
Needed assistance lambing when the shetlands didnt to the same tup...
They were daggier than my other sheep
I struggled shearing them due to size/weight/wool
I didnt get paid as much for the wool as I did my shetlands
They needed sooo much more feeding than my other sheep to keep on the body condition, so yes they were milky but high ouput + high input
I found the lambs grew legs legs and more legs before any body/carcass

So if you had really lush grass and accepted that they needed caking and a little tlc and most of your lamb with be legs, then yes they are lovely sheep 

I sold mine as they just really didnt fit in at all with my low input system

Good luck 

[BALLOCH]

Yes like I said zwartbles are lovely but eat as much as 2 sheep maybe 3 to keep on condition and lambs bad to fatten due to them growing.1st crop fleece nice and long but after that it can be coarse especialy breeding females as they put all to the lambs and fleece is dull and much shorter.Expect to pay £150 min for ewes and these will be poor quality,£250 is a better average but breed sales can be upto £700.Meat is very lean with very little fat and not strong tasting.

[Ladygrey]

Yes like I said zwartbles are lovely but eat as much as 2 sheep maybe 3 to keep on condition and lambs bad to fatten due to them growing.1st crop fleece nice and long but after that it can be coarse especialy breeding females as they put all to the lambs and fleece is dull and much shorter.Expect to pay £150 min for ewes and these will be poor quality,£250 is a better average but breed sales can be upto £700.Meat is very lean with very little fat and not strong tasting.

This is exactly how I found mine, I was not expecting to have to feed them the amount they needed! in the end I decided that were just not suited to rough/conservation grazing and I couldn't justify running two flocks of sheep in order to feed these sheep so much in order to produce lambs made of legs 

[Blacksheep]

There is lot of variation within the breed with Zwartbles, there are some big tall types that will need a lot of feeding to maintain condition, however there are smaller more compact types that don't need the higher quantities of feed.   Definitely worth visiting pedigree flocks before purchasing and finding out about the management of the flock to find what will suit your system.     
The farmer/butcher I spoke to a few years back in Cornwall who had 200 ewes expected his to do off grass alone and to rear lambs with a big carcass. He chose this breed for the quality of the meat and hence the premium paid for it, he was supplying top restaurants in the southwest. If you have a small flock you would probably be best supplying to customers direct, but if you will be selling through the market check with your local market whether there will be buyers, in some areas butchers are seeking it out due to the larger carcase and feedback from their customers about the quality of the meat.  We are at 1100ft on a low input farm so expect to supplementary feed, but are feeding the same to the Shropshires.
We get a decent price for our fleeces for a coloured fleece from the wool board, if you take into account that a Zwartbles sheep will produce a heavy fleece, twice the weight of many breeds, then the price per fleece rather than per kg is good, the better fleeces are sold for handspinning or felting. 

[JHunter2013]

Good to know! I think we're really thinking hard about going with the Clun Forest. They're quite interesting, and a bit of a rarity up in these parts. But just to be sure, we're heading to the Lockerbie Mart tomorrow to see what it's all about and prices/conditions of others. Getting excited! I do love my sheep! <3

[SallyintNorth]

Sally - what's the issue of multiple births if they've got the milk and mothering instinct to cope with them?

Smaller lambs take longer to fatten => more lambs around for longer eating more grass (so make less hay) and cake (costs money) (and yes they will need caking hereabouts, no ewe will finish triplets off grass alone on north Cumbrian SDA ground!), more meds (strong singles never get any meds, they'll be away off their mums at 4 months old), plus prices are higher earlier in the season so ppk will be less for lambs born and reared as triplets.

Also I'm not understanding the difference that crossing them makes here?  Thanks!

A 100% Lleyn ewe may have the milk and mothering to cope with rearing triplets.  But the next generation, say Lleyn x Texel, might inherit the fecundity from the Lleyn but not the milkiness; Texels are not a very milky breed and most will struggle to rear three on our sort of ground.  Plus the more the multiple births genes permeate the flock, the less early sales of spring lamb we will achieve, which means lower ppk overall, plus more meds for the lambs (as they'll be about longer and need worming, fluking, etc), so more work and more expense for each lamb sold.

On good rich southern grass it would be a different equation.  But here, it doesn't work for us.

[Womble]

Got you Sally - thanks for the reply  .