[robert waddell]

i think this is the best board to post as i would need to post on sheep cattle pigs goats and horses
now anybody can apply for a cph number get a flock/ herd  number buy whatever animal is there choice and instantly you are wholly responsible for that stock while living and dead
no exam no certificates of competence  bugger all really other than a couple of numbers
and all legally binding  the welfare of animal act the wild dog act  and others relating to the feed /storage movement /transportation
should it be the responsibility of the issuer of the cph number to directly inform newbies of there obligation legally in getting stock or should it be left to that newbie to go on who wants to be a millionare style asking  a neighbour  on a forum or pot luck with what they think is right
now it is not just newbies that flout the system i know of farmers that have dobbed other farmers in  when it should have been the complainer that was investigated
the animal movement book has always been on the go and i could never work out why the TS person came out to sign it every year it could have been dates you went to the pub in essence it was a token exercise although if you purchase an official one it clearly tells you what to do in the event of a sudden death  we adhered to this many farmers just don't give a s**t
everybody input is welcome

[suziequeue]

now anybody can apply for a cph number get a flock/ herd  number buy whatever animal is there choice and instantly you are wholly responsible for that stock while living and dead

Shocking. It's the same with having children  ..... anybody can do it....... no licence required 

[Small Plot Big Ideas]

In my opinion the same should probably apply for domestic pets as well given the number of numpties I've seen or heard about that are deliberately mistreating theirs or just downright bad owners through lack of experience/knowledge.

I definitely agree with the slightly more controversial aspect about whether it should be the same for couples having children...

[YorkshireLass]

I think it's scary; I still find out new things and wonder if I should have been doing them...doesn't help that you don't just go though DEFRA - some things are trading standards, some things are local bodies, etc etc etc. Very confusing overall.

[FiB]

now anybody can apply for a cph number get a flock/ herd  number buy whatever animal is there choice and instantly you are wholly responsible for that stock while living and dead

Shocking. It's the same with having children  ..... anybody can do it....... no licence required 

.  That really made me laugh!  S'true.  Have to say children (well my child anyway) are way easier than sheep. 
Interesting post Robert - I think the animal health dept could save a lot of money and be way more effective in their goal if they had a standard 'checklist' of pertinant regulations 'in a nutshell' that they sent out with every new flock number/herd number - perhaps that you sign and send back.  Rather than the arse covering visit I recieved ONE year after I had started (where they wouldnt even visit the animals and only wanted to talk about sheep records, not pigs too).  Also my year here has suggested to me that I am the only bugger for miles who does worry about the regulations!!    Never mind burying lambs - It is not uncommon practice in this valley of expereinced farmers to see fallen adult stock left in the field and then  bones removed 6 months later. Tagging also seems to be optional (untill sale?).  I do know a good one in next valley thankfully who I ask advice from.  But you are right, it can be totally phone a friend.

[Fleecewife]

I think you've raised a very relevant point Robert, one I've been chewing over recently too.  Someone will say - ok I've bought these animals, now what do I do?  You have to wonder why they didn't find out about them first.  Sometimes we hear about what amounts to out and out cruelty to animals caused by the total ignorance of the owner - the sheep my OH and I took on after they had been rescued (which we then passed on to Lochbyre  ) are such a case - someone thought it was a fashion statement of some kind to own sheep but had absolutely no understanding of the care required to keep them happy and healthy. 
 
But your point is really - whose responsibilty is it to make sure all animal owners have the requisite knowledge? To some extent it is up to the individual - but clearly that doesn't always work.  The Government does try by implementing rules and laws, but they don't cover everything, and human nature being what it is, some people see laws as only being there to be flouted or broken.
That just leaves peer pressure, in other words the rest of us have to take some responsibilty.  That means that when we sell stock we must make sure that we have passed on as much knowledge as we can about both how to care for the animals, and the rules and regs that must be complied with.  We must also be prepared to stand up and object if we see that someone is mistreating animals, be it deliberately or through neglect caused by ignorance or a lack of interest.
One way of helping to combat the ignorance is via the internet and discussions such as this, but the worst offenders probably are not sufficiently interested to even try to improve, so won't be here on TAS.

So I don't think there's a single answer Robert - but I'm really glad you have raised the point.

[doganjo]

Same with dogs - yes, I know my hobby horse, but the principle is exactly the same.  The KC let any t d or h register dogs no matter what health checks have been done and with no checks at all on the premises where breeding takes place.  Any old sod can breed whether they register them or not, no health checks done there either. I say bring back a reasonable dog licence and ring fence the income for proper checks!
I'm sure the same can be said for ALL animals! CPH and other licences MUST be checked up on.  They take the money and channel it into other places - that is WRONG!

[in the hills]

Agree with what is being said but do think that it would make good sense for them to at least send out the paper work/record keeping material that they expect you to be keeping. To say ... ask the person you are buying the sheep from .... doesnt in my opinion really work. I ask lots of questions, not only on here but also of local farmers, etc. and get many different answers to the same question. When it comes to care there are probably different ways of doing things and probably in lots of cases no right or wrong answers.Read as much as you can and talk to as many people as you can and then use your common sense and judgement. We all have to begin somewhere and I dont believe anyone is ever an expert ..... all should still be learning all the time.When it comes to actual concrete record keeping then yes I think that it is their responsibility to tell me what information they want kept and in what format ..... just as the tax people or whoever send their forms to be completed.
 
Care of animals is slightly different. Not only farm animals but as Doganjo says dogs or indeed any living thing. Yes SQ. ....... very true ..... as an ex primary teacher ..... it applies very much to children also.Neglect .... both deliberate or through ignorance.
 
Cor Robert       ..... dont know how you would go about putting right all those wrongs .... record keeping is one thing but care/responsibility ..... that is one BIG issue. FW is right too in that the very people that you most need to reach are unreachable in many cases.
 
Yes FiB, I ve seen and smelt    dead adult sheep .... def. not even buried ..... dont know what happens with their records? Talking to local farmers the rules dont seem to matter a whole lot, nor does a lot else. So it maybe easy for anyone to get a number but is it these new keepers that break most rules/ give inappropriate care or many of the old hands?There really is only one local farmer whos advice I really trust in and wouldnt want any of them except him to handle my stock ...since I believe all living things should be dealt with, with at least some thought and dignity.
 
 
Cor ...... going for a lie down now!!!! 

[suziequeue]

Rather than the arse covering visit I recieved ONE year after I had started

We've never had a visit yet.

[in the hills]

Nor me ... so as far as they know I have no records

[robert waddell]

the selective breeding thing Hitler tried that   at least with animals if the breeding programme does not work out you can always eat them
the dog ugly highly intelligent man married a beautiful  thick as s**t woman all the kids had the dads looks and the mothers intelligence
the guy that started the nursing home next to me always wanted animals he had yellow labs and did breed them  he had geese ducks quail and hens  Freddie got the most of them and the remainder were killed on the road he also had goats and sheep
after the home was opened his sheep died at the back of the wall had he not started his campaign of hate towards us we would have told him instead we left it till we could stand the smell no longer and reported him  no action taken   he obviously talked his way out of it     he was on holiday down in England and was coming up through cumbria when he came across an agric show pulled in left his dogs in the car  and they had to be rescued from heat stress  he did not talk his way out of that one and was done  now had the authority's acted on the dead sheep  he should have been banned from keeping livestock so you can imagine the care and attention that was lavished on his granny farming
his goats were getting feral and thought my silage bales were the best thing to climb on
yes just how would you or could you regulate who has animals 

[tizaala]

Animal health refused to give me a flock number until after I'd bought the sheep, then they said to use the same as the goats,  that makes real sense, all they want to do is cover their arses with movement sheets. why can't the authorities all get covered with the same umberella, Trading standards, Defra, Animal health. they might even share info and plug some of the loopholes.
And yes to parenting exams, after our fostering experiences they are desperately wanted.

[SallyintNorth]

For those outside Scotland seeking government guidance, Defra still has a long way to go to catch up with their Scottish counterparts but they are trying to make it easier.  They are putting their efforts into the Business Link website; increasingly when you look things up via Defra you will be routed there.  They try to bring together the various aspects which, as you all have said, are dealt with by different government departments.

One start point is currently here:
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1083732033&furlname=livestock&furlparam=livestock&ref=http%3A//www.defra.gov.uk/food-farm/animals/&domain=www.businesslink.gov.uk

but if that link fails (which over time it will), start at Defra -> Food and Farming -> Farm Animals; there'll be a link from there to the current Business Link pages.

Farmers are policed in that there are both regular and random inspections and so on that audit on-farm practices.  Failure to comply would result in deductions to the Single Farm Payment, which no farmer can afford.

Farmers who subscribe to the Farm Assured scheme (meaning that meat originating on their farm can be marketed with the Little Red Tractor logo) get additional and more arduous annual inspections.

If you really want all livestock keepers to be better policed, then boycott all meat that doesn't bear the Red Tractor logo; make your local butcher buy only Farm Assured meat to sell in his shop.  But none of us here want to do that - we like buying /eating the locally-reared rare breed / free range meat we and other smallholders produce!

So it's a good question, robert, and there are no easy answers.

[Small Farmer]

Add horses to that.  Go to any livery yard to see complete b*****ks being spouted by experienced owners to anyone daft enough to listen.


The allocation of a flock number (I think) triggers a notification to the local authority who have the job of inspecting.  We've never been inspected or even contacted but keep all the records up to date just in case.


Our vet's practice runs education evenings sponsored by DEFRA every few months which have been really useful.  The last ones have covered calving and lambing problems including Schmallenburg.  Loads of practical advice and decades of experience for nothing, plus a really good free buffet each time.


You need no qualifications, experience or sense to have children (you wouldn't bother if you knew what was coming) but to adopt is the most tortuous long-drawn out procedure. It's all in "the best interests of the child" as if anyone knew what that was.

[robert waddell]

farm assured and the wee red tractor ain't worth jack s**t      the pig farmer that was going to be done for cruelty was in that scheme   and QMS used jimmy doherty to front there campaign to get more pork sold
pork is still getting less sales so that did not work