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Author Topic: Pig ID in Scotland  (Read 8211 times)

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2011, 08:39:00 pm »
further confusion and mayhem
we have been sent (before we received the pig id and registration guidance) the act of the Scottish parliament (2011 no327) it says a document accompanying a pig must contain details of the holding of birth
BUT THE LIVESTOCK TRACEBILITY FORMS SENT OUT WITH  THE GUIDANCE  DOES NOT HAVE THIS FACILITY :farmer:
 

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2011, 08:48:47 pm »


I can see that, given the way pigs play with each other (and sometimes fight), it is not necessarily a good idea to apply eartags to young pigs; better to do it at the last moment. 
[/quote]

Young goats are well nown to get ripped ears from sticking their heads through fences etc etc, so eartags in goats are just as unfeasible (from an animal welfare point of view) as they are in young pigs. same for lambs/sheep, although mine seem not to have a problem with the newer tags (famous last words). Really a tatto/brandmark (as horses used to have, not sure if they still do) would be most durable and more difficult to alter/fake/change...

But hey ho... who says it should make sense????

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 09:24:46 am »
further confusion and mayhem
we have been sent (before we received the pig id and registration guidance) the act of the Scottish parliament (2011 no327) it says a document accompanying a pig must contain details of the holding of birth
BUT THE LIVESTOCK TRACEBILITY FORMS SENT OUT WITH  THE GUIDANCE  DOES NOT HAVE THIS FACILITY :farmer:

The need to enter holding of birth for pigs temporarily marked must qualify for the most pointless piece of pig legislation -  and there are some stong contenders!

Given that :

all moves are notified (or if not somone is not going to cheat on the first move and then tell the truth on the second!) therefore the authorities already know the chain of moves between farms.
That standstills slow/stop the spread of disease, so if legally moved the disease firewall has already happened
that a temporary mark only needs to last for the journey
and that all pigs on a farm with disease are killed if suspect

Under what circumstances would knowing from a form the holding of birth of some pigs be needed, when the authorities are looking at a pen of pigs where some have come from farm a and some from farm b, but we don't know which as they have lost their temporary marks (hence the word temporary!), and we already have the paperwork that shows that some came from farm a and some from farm b in any case?





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SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 10:07:20 am »
Much as I hate to validate anything the animal id people come up with, I can actually see the point of wanting holding of birth.

I think it is naive to assume that all possible diseases have been identified because everyone has complied with their standstill requirements.  Even if all farmers are totally vigilant, some diseases will not evidence until later.  Plus, there will be new diseases, for which the epidemiology will be different.

Therefore, if pigs arrive on a holding which then develops a notifiable disease, not only is it useful to know where those pigs came from but also where they originated. 

The authorities have that info for cattle, as every single move of every single beast is recorded and held centrally.  Increasingly the same is true of sheep (although at present there is no central database so the information would take weeks to collate the first time it's needed.  ::))  And even without sheep EID, the movement forms have for some time required the logging of the flock number in the ears of all the sheep - ie, the holding(s) of birth of all sheep in the consignment.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 10:40:55 am »
Sally,

My point is that the authorities already have the chain of moves through the previous forms, so entering the holding of birth on a form makes no sense for an animal that you cannot ID two minutes after it gets there!



www.Oaklandspigs.co.uk
"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 11:15:19 am »
My point is that the authorities already have the chain of moves through the previous forms, so entering the holding of birth on a form makes no sense for an animal that you cannot ID two minutes after it gets there!

Having data and being able to derive information are very different things.

It would be impractical for them to piece together contacts by going back over old movement forms in any but extremely isolated cases.  In a disease outbreak they would need a much quicker method.

Even once the information is collected electronically, as eAML comes in, it will be much easier to trace contacts if each move supplies the holding of birth.  (I used to be involved in writing queries for large computer databases, I do know what I am talking about.)  In fact, unless the holding of birth of the animals in the shipment is included on the movement form, it would not be possible to know the specific holding(s) of birth of the specific pigs in the consignment, it would only be possible to know all of the holdings which supplied pigs to the consigning holding - and if they had moved once already since birth, that may not include any or all of the holdings of birth.

I understand your point about the individual animal's ID getting lost on arrival.  But there is still the ability to trace contacts between farms.  If a disease were found in an animal know to have arrived from holding B, then all holdings with a connection to holding B would be the first to investigate for further incidence.  If the holdings of birth of the animals that were in the batch in which the disease occurred are also known, then each of these can also be immediately assessed - which could mean saving days or weeks in curtailing the spread of the disease.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 12:59:04 pm »
Sally,

Suspect we'll never agree on this one  :)

If you are right, then the whole point of the last 10 years and esp. of e-aml is lost.

It is precisely because forms were keyed onto AMLS and in future will be keyed into e-aml that you are able to back track.  These systems only exist to allow this function to take place, there is no other reason for them. Whilst I share a little of your cynicism on IT (I also wrote and managed systems), the current AMLS has backtracking written into it, as does E-aml. 

It is perfectly possible to find a disease on farm D, and get the system to say what moves onto farm D have happened in the last say month.  This would produce say farms C & B, each of which would have to be visited to check if they have disease.  If farm C does, then its anticedents are checked and so on.  If Farm B doesn't then its anticedents aren't checked.  You would not randomly visit anticedents just because they were a holding of birth, you would follow the disease chain.  It is a pretty quick process, esp as you put complete standstills in place as soon as disease spreads, and have 6 & 20 day stabndstills in place when there is no disease.


 
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"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Pig ID in Scotland
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2011, 01:34:52 pm »
steady tigers       the old system was slow at tracing the movements   which was a lot better than we had before foot and mouth          but there are or was flaws in the old paper system     the new system e Aml is being introduced to speed up detection and to know where ever pig is (aye right there will still be illegal moves) the part about holding of birth    i think   is to try and get a better picture of the total pigs and also to catch out the ones that are doing the illegal moves BUT there is no provision on the new forms that show the box for the holding of birth       is one department doing the law or statute part and an other doing the rest with no communication
would they not be better getting the same system as the national lottery have in less than an  hour
of the draw taking place they can id the ticket the shop that sold it etc
also the disparity of the legislation betwean Scotland and England  IE 6 day and 13 day standstill not that it bothers me  with an approved isolation facility
there are regional talks on e Aml in England but none in Scotland unless you have heard of one :farmer:
also the haulier that is to check if they have the licence     start time and offload time that is to check you are within the law and operating within your distance and obeying the speed limits ;D :farmer: ;D
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 01:43:53 pm by robert waddell »

 

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