[robert waddell]

have seen both sows and piglets being sick    usually after gobbling food
pigs are the nearest animal to humans and they can be sick just as we can and get over it

[SallyintNorth]

Thanks robert.  I wanted someone with loads of experience to tell me that.   

She's eaten and behaved normally today, the piglets seem fine (though they haven't come out of the ark very much, we've had just awful weather today), and she definitely has milk - I squirted some while she had her head in her feed.

I think what probably happened was she was hungry (I was later with her midday meal than usual), the weather was wet and horrid so rootling was less appealing and the straw in the ark was damp and muddy from the tramping in and out in wet weather - and she ate too much of that damp muddy straw and made herself sick.  It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !

My book (the useless Andy Case one - I must get me a better one..) implied that vomiting was unusual and worrisome, and that a low temperature was seriously bad news, and I knew from stories played out on here that you don't want to mess about with lactating sows, but get her sorted quick.  So I called the vet.  He has a proper mercury thermometer so got a better temperature reading - still a bit low but not so bad.  He also thought vomiting was unusual, but was honest enough to say he doesn't get to see a huge number of pigs.  So I remained really quite worried until she seemed normal today.  It's a relief to hear from someone with robert's experience that vomiting is not unusual in either sow or piglet.

[Blonde]

Thanks robert.  I wanted someone with loads of experience to tell me that.   

She's eaten and behaved normally today, the piglets seem fine (though they haven't come out of the ark very much, we've had just awful weather today), and she definitely has milk - I squirted some while she had her head in her feed.

I think what probably happened was she was hungry (I was later with her midday meal than usual), the weather was wet and horrid so rootling was less appealing and the straw in the ark was damp and muddy from the tramping in and out in wet weather - and she ate too much of that damp muddy straw and made herself sick.  It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !

My book (the useless Andy Case one - I must get me a better one..) implied that vomiting was unusual and worrisome, and that a low temperature was seriously bad news, and I knew from stories played out on here that you don't want to mess about with lactating sows, but get her sorted quick.  So I called the vet.  He has a proper mercury thermometer so got a better temperature reading - still a bit low but not so bad.  He also thought vomiting was unusual, but was honest enough to say he doesn't get to see a huge number of pigs.  So I remained really quite worried until she seemed normal today.  It's a relief to hear from someone with robert's experience that vomiting is not unusual in either sow or piglet.

I would have thought vomiting in any animal was unusual and not normal.  The sow will vomit before she has her pigs, but not always.  The piglets will vomit and scour if the requirements of the ark/hut are not dry and warm. ie.  wet damp straw.....cold drafts.  To find out some of these issues it is good to lay down on their bedding and get the feel of what they are living with and in. This is a good way to feel drafts coming into their ark/hut. Also if the straw is damp you will feel uncomfortable. to the point of feeling cold....so will they.    If piglets are vomiting I would expect them to have something wrong and call a vet  or email a vet.  To drink milk too quickly and bring excess milk back up is one thing but to vomit for no apparent reason is a measure for a vet.

[SallyintNorth]

It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !

If piglets are vomiting I would expect them to have something wrong and call a vet  or email a vet.  To drink milk too quickly and bring excess milk back up is one thing but to vomit for no apparent reason is a measure for a vet.

I think that's exactly what it was, Blonde.  Guzzly little oinker ate (drank) too much milk too quickly and brought some back up.  Probably the piglet equivalent of being burped!

And you are right on the money re: the straw.  I hadn't realised that it was damp through the comings and goings with it being wet and muddy outside and found out pretty quickly when I sat in there with them for half an hour.  Now I am checking and bunging some fresh dry straw in every day while we have these wet weather conditions.

[Blonde]

It doesn't explain the piglet throwing up - but maybe that happens fairly often, we just don't usually get to see it as we don't usually have the luxury of having the time and/or reason to sit with them for long periods !

If piglets are vomiting I would expect them to have something wrong and call a vet  or email a vet.  To drink milk too quickly and bring excess milk back up is one thing but to vomit for no apparent reason is a measure for a vet.

I think that's exactly what it was, Blonde.  Guzzly little oinker ate (drank) too much milk too quickly and brought some back up.  Probably the piglet equivalent of being burped!

And you are right on the money re: the straw.  I hadn't realised that it was damp through the comings and goings with it being wet and muddy outside and found out pretty quickly when I sat in there with them for half an hour.  Now I am checking and bunging some fresh dry straw in every day while we have these wet weather conditions.

You will notice that the wet straw will begin to break down and become warm..... this the piglets will enjoy but it may take a week to come about. so I would keep the dry straw up to them continuously until the weather improves.  Have you got a board in front of your opening to your hut.  This allows you to build up the  soil kans straw to get the ground somewhat dry.  I build up my floors with a pallet first, then fill this with the dirt around the pen then put straw on top of this, but the board in front of the  hut stops the sows from dragging the soil out of the hut has she walks, kjshe kahs to step over it and so this keeps the dry soil and straw in the hut for her babies   . If you wstch closely  the pigs all drag their back legs, rarely do they lift them when walking on soil but if they have to step over something then they will and they will get used to it.

[SallyintNorth]

The ark has a solid, raised floor - we get too much water coming up through the ground to do otherwise in this particular spot.  So any wet comes only from pee or water coming in on wet bodies and muddy legs.  There is a lip at the front of the ark so they don't drag much if any straw out with them.

I knew about leaving the older straw in the ark to get warm through composting, now with fresh straw on top they have the best of both worlds.   

[Blonde]

The ark has a solid, raised floor - we get too much water coming up through the ground to do otherwise in this particular spot.  So any wet comes only from pee or water coming in on wet bodies and muddy legs.  There is a lip at the front of the ark so they don't drag much if any straw out with them.

I knew about leaving the older straw in the ark to get warm through composting, now with fresh straw on top they have the best of both worlds.   

You should use it to your advantage

[Blinkers]

Only just caught up on this post - heavens what a worry, but delighted to read that all OK now.   

[Fowgill Farm]

If it helps Sally everyday we drag out wet damp straw from in the door way and put it outside in front to make a doormat (Piggies like to wipe their feet too! ) and then replenish door area with new.
Hth
Mandy 

[robert waddell]

vomiting      have seen piglets gorging themselves then barfing up and continuing eating  the other piglets eat the vomit
bedding     with the wet weather we have been having in Scotland it impossible to keep them on clean dry straw they are cleaner and dryer sleeping in the open under trees and at the back of the dyke  also what blonde said before about leaving the bedding to generate heat just the same as bedding cattle in sheds
outdoor systems work in free draining soil with an average rainfall
as a side note i was driving about east and central Scotland on sat and sun the state of some fields are really bad and that is the good areas 

[Blonde]

Some of the outdoor farms put a hut in place and leave the lid open, fill the hut with dirt, but first have a board in front of the hut to keep it all in.  They then add hay to it and put the lid on.  The pigs have  dry places to lay all year around. Some of them grow on clay soils which become a complete  bog during the winter.  Me I am lucky in that I have yellow sand, but in saying that I am very close to the clay and the water will lay for the whole of winter around the huts, so building them up inside is so important, as I dont have dry hay if I dont do this either.  The piglets get cold and sometimes if we have had a heavy downpour I lose them to drowning.  Then I feel frustrated because of it.  For me Pallets are a blessing to have and generally they are free.    Composting  is so IMPORTANT   because I am also outside.   

[Tudful Tamworths]

Sally, you mentioned wanting a good pig book. My "bible" (no offence, religious people) is Managing Pig Health and the Treatment of Disease by Muirhead and Alexander (http://shop.thepigsite.com/detail/35/managing-pig-health-and-the-treatment-of-disease/)
Cost me over £40 when I bought it, but was a really worthwhile investment. The publishers (5M) also do a series of mini-books on specific things, e.g. breeding/fertility.

[SallyintNorth]

My "bible" (no offence, religious people) is Managing Pig Health and the Treatment of Disease by Muirhead and Alexander (http://shop.thepigsite.com/detail/35/managing-pig-health-and-the-treatment-of-disease/)
Cost me over £40 when I bought it, but was a really worthwhile investment.

It's £55 now - that's reduced from list price £95!  I don't mind spending the money if it's the right book - but the blurb is heavy on the use of the term 'pig farm' so I wonder if a lot of the advice is aimed at a more mass-production setup than me and my one, may become two, low output free range sows!

However, following the link did remind me of the Health database on the Pig Site (which info is from that very book, it says), so that is a great resource I had forgotten about.

[Tudful Tamworths]

Trust me, it's worth every penny. May have been originally aimed at large-scale pig farmers, but it's absolutely suited to the small-scale breeder, too. And not heavy on jargon. Otherwise, I wouldn't have recommended it. All of the info on the pig site comes from that book - but the book goes into far greater detail.

[SallyintNorth]

Looks like I've got an answer to Mum's annual "What do you want for Christmas?" question, then, Liz!