[violet]

I would like some reassurance please from those of you who know more 

Some customers bought some gilt weaners from me to breed from.
I'm pretty diligent, relatively intelligent and can transfer this into stockmanship - when I'm unsure I'm either on here, speaking to someone locally who knows more or on the phone to the vet. I have no problem making a fool of myself if it means getting good advice. Enough said.
After various disasters sourcing a boar, I lent them my baconer, just so they could get their gilts in-pig.

At first it appeared they were all infertile!? I found out that they hadn't been taking hogging records.
Now one gilt has had 3 piglets. When they found her one was dead, now, one-by-one all are dead. Which is an awful experience for them, I know.
I asked if they were stillborn, squashed or had hypothermia - apparantly not. I told them to phone a vet because if it was anything else it could make the gilt sick & she should be checked out. They have declined this advice.
I asked them about their farrowing kit & preperation - they have avoided this question.
The exchange as gone on for a little while in the course of it I have finally told them that:
1. Their gilt is way too fat ( her brothers for fattening had over two inches of back fat at slaughter) - I had warned them about this too!
2. That they should review their farrowing quarters.
3. That they should take records and make an effort to be there during farrowing as this is the only way to know what has happened.

Have I left anything out? Are there any other issues I should know about. 3 seems rather a small litter even for a first time gilt, is there anyother reason for this.

I just need a bit of reassurance, as they seem to be wanting to blame me in some way - though I know I've not done anything wrong, other than be too nice 
 
Thanks folks. I'm out all day today, so I'll look forward to any replies when I get back 

 

[Fowgill Farm]

Oh Violet
Poor you sounds like you sold your pigs to complete numpties!
They've let the gilt get too fat which is probably why there were only 3, she's been left on her own to farrow(a traumatic enough experience for a gilt) and has probably squahed or chewed the other piglets. Sounds like they are either thick or just don't care about their animals to me. Don't think theres much you can do and all you tell them will probably fall on deaf ears as your advice re the vet already has.
Sounds to me like they've thought ooh lets have some piglets and then not done the homework or had the time & committment to follow it thro, for me the piglets being dead is probably a good outcome as they won't suffer like their poor mum!! If you're concerned about their welfare contact local AHO and ask them to check people out.
Me when i sell pigs i'm like the gestapo, check out where they're going, pics where they'll live, meet people prior and they get a blurb on how to look after their weaners.
An awful experience not for them but for you because you feel responsible and you shouldn't its their wrong doing and no fault of yours.
HTH
Mandy 

[HappyHippy]

I think you've given good advice Violet, what I would add is

1) If the gilt suffered any stress within 4 weeks of service this might affect egg implantation or the low number is due to the amount of fat or insufficient quality of feeding either pre-breeding or around service time.
2) If she wasn't wormed pre-farrowing - this can sometimes cause problems.
3) Have they a heat light ? If not, squashing is the most likely cause of death - especially now it's colder and small piglets will be cuddling up to mum for heat (if she's really heavy this will make the problem more likely to occur)
4) They may not have had their initial feed, so might have missed out on the first colostrum (essential for a good start)

Was the baconer her brother ? This might account for the low litter number & problems.......but I'm not sure as I've not been in that situation.

"When they found her one was dead"
Did they not realise she was due ? 
Did they not have a note of the service and expected farrowing date ? 
Were they not checking her regularly ? 
 
The way I see it is, you sold them (I'm assuming registered) weaners which they have raised, you provided a boar (just as many breeders do) but it's their responsibility to make sure that they know what they're doing and how to care for gilts pre and post farrowing. I don't think it's in any way your responsibility or that you should be feeling bad about it. The pigs aren't your responsibility after they leave your holding, they no longer belong to you. And I'm not saying that in any sort of nasty way, I go above & beyond when it comes to 'after sales care' and if there was ever an underlying health problem I wouldn't hesitate to offer compensation - but I really feel in this situation that it's been their fault for not doing enough homework. Their refusal to phone a vet is just ridiculous    no responsible or clued up owner would ever ignore this advice  after all, she may have only farrowed half of the piglets (they weren't there so can't say for sure how much afterbirth there was) and could have dead piglets still inside her  If they aren't concerned by this or able to take steps to rule it out, they shouldn't be breeding.
HTH
Karen x

[robert waddell]

every body has the right to breed
just not all are competent
fatalities happen    and i can see there reluctance to PAY for a vet
inbreeding like this is acceptable in the absences of a suitable boar and does not impare the performance of the piglets    NOT IDEAL BUT GIVEN THE SIRCUMSTANCES
will pm you violet

[Barrett]

HI All, it would sound that these people shouldn't really have any animals in there care, we all have to learn about these things but there is line that shouldn't be crossed and they certainly have done so.  My first sow died 2 days after farrowing due to me not involving the vet enough or being more clued up however, I most certainly would not have ignored any advice given to me.  The worry now is can you be sure that the pigs living conditions are OK, they are clearly not caring for her correctly, may be a question for the RSPCA, if you are sure the animal is in some way suffering it is your duty as a descent human being to save the poor pig I wouldn't hesitate.  I did hear once of a sow eating her piglets perhaps she had more but ate them.

[robert waddell]

eating piglets is quite common

[violet]

Just popped back for lunch!

Thank you all for your replies folks.

The gilts came from a sow that I AI'd & the boar came from her sister ( natural service). The boars ( ai & my own) had a grandfather & uncle in common. I made this clear as I realised it may be a bit borderline for some people. But for an experienced line breeder I doubt there would be a problem.

The thing is they are intelligent people and do care about their animals, but this doesn't make them good stockmen and this is the bit I find frustrating. But like any skill there is an art to it isn't there? And you've either got it or you've got to work hard to develop it.

What about milk production? Can this fail? I've had to milk sheep before who've either had blocked teats or early stages of mastitis, but not a pig - other then to check she's milky or to help a weaker piglet.
I think they were expecting the milk to be dribbling from her teats and that's what they were waiting for.

Yes I have suggested the eating piglet scenario 
Barrett - it was from reading your posts that I suggested the vet &/or antibiotics so soon. Your experience was awful and I'm sure we've all had times where we're just not certain what the right course of action is and mastitis is a real risk.
Yes my concern is for the sow, but they report that she's fine eating well etc. So unless it was some form of lack of nutrition, for the sows sake I'm hoping that they either got hypothermia or she squashed them 

And I think it is about time I got my gestapo act together

[Roxy]

I really cannot see why these people could hold you to blame, Violet.

The pig was in their care at the time of farrowing, not yours .....most sensible animal owner would do their best to be around at time of birth ....although sometimes it happens earlier than planned and this cannot be helped.  And even if we are there, sometimes there are deaths, but all the same, at the end of the day, you have not done anything wrong!!!

[Tiva Diva]

A miserable experience all round - such a shame.
What breed of pig are they, and what age are the gilts? They may not be infertile, but your baconer might be sub-fertile, and if the gilts are too young (and too fat) that could account for the small litter size.
None of this is your fault. They should have kept track of her hogging, and been there when she farrowed (though it's not always possible: one of ours went into labour nearly a week early)
The death of the piglets could be for any number of reasons, and I can understand their reluctance to pay for a vet who may not even be able to give an answer.
I think it's a bit harsh to say that they shouldn't have animals in their care: we were all beginners once. They should, however, be prepared to learn from their misfortune and mistakes. In their place, before I attempted to breed again I would want to be much better prepared.

[violet]

Hi Tiva Diva,

They are Tamworth, gilts were a year old 1st August. The boar, though intended to be a baconer was bought through the last winter & so wasn't particularly fat. I'm interested in what you meant by sub-fertile? The gilts are very fat, I'm wondering if lack of excercise may be an issue too? Do you think he may have had problems mating with them?

Though I think it's unlikely I am really interested to know if anyone has any experience or knowledge of a gilt/sow failing to produce milk?

I do understand about the reluctance to call out a vet, but they have the same vet as me who offers free telephone advice & support.  I've had anti-biotics & oxytocin prescribed & administered it myself. I don't know if they had any lubricant to do an internal examination themselves - they never answered that part of my question. I can talk to the vets in my own way and they know what I mean as they are experienced rural farm vets- i.e. they trust your instinct about your animals.

 I've had my own problems too.
But what I have never done is sit down, refuse to accept that my darling pig could possibly do all those horrible things, or that it couldn't have been anything to do with me and try and work out who I can blame.
I always work out what I could have done differently or better. Even if circumstances seemed to conspire to make things impossible to have done the right thing that time - I make sure that it doesn't happen again and that I really can say ' I did my best' and know it's true. The animals always come first.

In fact, after several e-mail exchanges of me at my diplomatic best, I finally said that to them & haven't heard from them since 

[Tiva Diva]

It is possible for a pig not to release milk after farrowing. Oxytocin will cure the problem, but she may need repeated doses. I've never seen it, but it does happen. I don't think it's more common in overweight pigs.

The gilts being very fat is quite likely to be part of the fertility problem, but not lack of exercise (look at commercial piggeries where sows get almost no exercise).

Boars, like any male animal, gan be sub-fertile i.e. producing sperm that are not good quality/quantity.

I absolutely agree with your comments!!

[Blonde]

eating piglets is quite common

Yes I would agree that is common.  If the piglets are dead the sow will consume them to stop predators such as your friendly fox form coming in and taking the rest of them.  They also consume the after birth for the same reason.  If the afterbirth is fed to gilts they build up the herd bugs immunity in their systems and they do well later on in life within the herd.  If you have a sow that is heavy in pig and she is overlooked the others will cannabalise the piglets ....... then you miss out!!

[violet]

Thank you all so much for the support and advice folks.

I got  brief e-mail today to day that their other gilt successfully farrowed 10 live piglets.

So something got through.

I guess that is what we can call a result - despite the headache

so thank you all again