[Stevie G]

I do alright out of my smallholding, thanks very much for asking.

My post was meant in jest, having looked at your last two posts where your answer was to cull; you've obviously culled your sense of humour at some point.

I think that if a sow chucks a single after a first litter of seven that culling isn't the answer.  Surely in the long run it is better to give that sow another run at the boar and see what it chucks on the third litter - far cheaper than knacker man out to cull then buying in a weaner to grow to carrying age or buying in a replacement sow?

Where did I say about getting a vet out to cull something instead of doing something myself?


It sounded more like sarcasm and you know what they say about sarcasm.
And why should it mean that just because I haven't appreciated your amazing wit(double standard here!) that I have no sense of humour.


This sow has had 7 piglets on her first(which isn't fantastic, but then you may have to consider if thats good for a pure?) and then she's had 1 on her second. Surely she has had her second chance???

A  fair  few people on this site seem to phone the Vet at the first signs of trouble, and all he will do in general is give antibiotics(better add it of course depends on the situation, but as a general rule).
You inperson didn't say you get the Vet, but I was refering to the GROUP You, not singular.

[And yes, its cheaper to reserve her from your point of view, as you don't have a truck going on a weekly bases.

And I would be interested to know in what sense you believe that if you are running 300 sows outdoors, where all your sows are grouped in large paddock of 10's, the gilts all farrow individually, the sows are farrowed by size/age(so 2 paddocks) and they are more than likely feed a similar ration to the one you use, and every thing is checked daily(farrowing checked 3 as much as is needed), that you are doing things so much different that your meat is so much tastier!  

As a smallholder it is obvious that things have to be looked at in a different light, something I keep forgetting!

[TheCaptain]

I don't really understand your post. I thought my reply was measured and without emotion but, yet again, you've made it personal, but against all smallholders!  Smart move.

  As Ellisr said, If your animals are just figures to you then you have the same outlook as a commercial farmer and have lost the roots of a smallholder; by the looks of things you're not a smallholder and I wonder what your point is on being on this forum?  We, as smallholders, do things that would not be economically viable for a commercial producer, such as ring the vet at the first sign of trouble.  This is more down to experience as we probably wouldn't ring the vet for the same again. Then again, we as a whole generally have higher welfare standards - and please don't take offence at that, but with all the will in the world there is no way a commercial producer who runs 300 sows can have the same outlook or any idea of what we as smallholders think or do. As we keep less animals, and seen as you love to talk about averages, one of our animals is on average worth a lot more to us than someone who owns 300 stock.   Sorry chap, but if you're referring to yourself as the producer who runs 300 sows, then you're an outsider offering the wrong type of advice to the wrong people.

p.s. we're probably not doing that much different to the commercial producer but my meat tastes soooo much better. It almost seems like your jealous that we produce meat that is of a better quality than a commercial producer. Strange.

[SallyintNorth]

If your animals are just figures to you then you have the same outlook as a commercial farmer

hey hey HEY HEY!  Just hold on a minute there!

I know of no commercial farmer in these parts to whom the animals are just figures.  Yes we have to make commercial decisions (or go bust) but they are not just numbers.

Having said which I do agree that a commercial pig farmer almost certainly would cull a sow whose 2 litter average was 4 piglets. 

[TheCaptain]

If your animals are just figures to you then you have the same outlook as a commercial farmer

hey hey HEY HEY!  Just hold on a minute there!

I know of no commercial farmer in these parts to whom the animals are just figures.  Yes we have to make commercial decisions (or go bust) but they are not just numbers.

Having said which I do agree that a commercial pig farmer almost certainly would cull a sow whose 2 litter average was 4 piglets. 

Unfortunately, I know plenty whose animals are just figures - but they are poor farmers and will hopefully go out of business. It was rather blase of me to make that statement, I admit, *some (most?)* commercial farmers see their livestock as figures and nothing more.

Like I said, wrong type of advice for a smallholder.

[robert waddell]

unfortunatly with posters on this site there is this them and us perception       what is the defenition of a smallholder          to a farmer yes the animals are figures when sold  how would they survive if they dont produce for money          have you done any costings as to what it costs to rear and keep a pig           that was the point that stevie g was trying to get over                   

[TheCaptain]

Of course it's a 'them and us' - the forum isn't called 'The Accidental Commercial Farmer' now, is it?  I've seen a few posts on here that label us as 'pretend farmers', which is pretty much what most of us are. However, with that comes a completely different set of ideals and mind set to someone who makes a living out of farming on a big scale.  For me, if I make any profit that's a bonus, to break even is usually what I aim for as a starting point - that is the difference.

[SallyintNorth]

Well I am a commercial farmer, in that we make our living from our farm.  I think of myself also a closet smallholder on the side.

You will have to judge for yourselves whether I am 'you' or 'them'!  I do not look at it that way and I hope that I am not a complete misfit here nor in the company of other farmers.

I do think however that there are some prejudices at both ends of the spectrum. 

A commercial farmer has of course to bring in enough money to sustain him or herself and any dependents and the farm and business - and that includes enough surplus to finance investment in upgrading equipment, diversifying, generally investing in the future.  However any idea that farmers are driven by profit is way off beam.  I do not know a single one that measures his success in these terms.  I find that farmers are proud and responsible people.  They care about their land, their stock, their family, their neighbours.  It matters to them that their farm is in good heart, their stock healthy and good examples of their kind. 

BH is thrilled when his lambs top the mart - but it's not the money, it's the confirmation that he's producing good lambs that are what the buyers want to buy.  And there's pride that his farm's name will be in the paper and his neighbours will also know that he is producing good lambs that are what the buyers want to buy. 

[HappyHippy]

However, with that comes a completely different set of ideals and mind set to someone who makes a living out of farming on a big scale.

Captain, I think you're wrong. Only my opinion mind you 
I don't know ANY farmer who doesn't care about their animals  Certainly 'farm managers' may feel differently to those who are living on a family farm, but somehow I doubt it.
Of course, Smallholders and those striving for self-sufficiency (which, to me are completely different things) want to feel that they are doing it better and for all the right reasons. This isn't the case at all, in many instances smallholders really let themselves down when it comes to the veterinary side of it - worm counts, regular blood tests, identifying and treating disease - things which are high priority on the commercial side. I think commercial farmers get a bad press  They're not choosing to produce the way they do, it's being dictated by the buyers. My dad had a big beef herd around 20 years ago, definately a commercial farmer in the sense that he made his living from it - he knew each of his cows by sight (and there were over 100 of them) most of them had names and the day he arrived at the slaughterhouse and led a young bullock out of his trailer, only to have it culled on-the-spot right in front of him, was the day he decided to stop farming. So please, don't make generalised sweeping statements. If you're happy doing what you do, that's the main thing - don't down others to make yourself feel better.
Karen x

[chickenfeed]

all the livestock farmers i know take great pride and care of their animals, having said that most smallholders take the same pride in their animals i cant say for every smallholder (i consider ourselfs in this catorgory) but the vet is always on hand as is the local hunt, tests are done as and when needed, the biggest asset i have is my parents with over 40 years of livestock experience to pass on.

happy hippy i just come back from the slaughter house after taking one of my dads goats (not up to show standards or breed type so he would rather she go in the food chain than someone buy to breed from) i did this because he has the understanding that this is the best option he just did not or could not walk her down the trailer ramp.

i think there is a fine line between farming and smallholding but both should (and in my experience do) have the animals welfare first and formost.

forums are not always the best place to try and get your point across as emotions are lost with no visual contact so things are misread and twisted then come across all wrong.

[TheCaptain]

You are lucky in the fact that all of the farmers you know put their animal welfare first and foremost, the majority I know do not.

The point I'm making is that you cannot apply the same set of rules to a smallholder that a commercial farmer applies; and that those commercial farmers on here that offer advice and are respected for what they bring (they are!! Honest - I've been in a bit of a bad mood recently) should temper how they relay that information.  This came from a post by StevieG that after a single piglet in a litter following seven from the first that it should be culled.  Now Stevie G is a commercial farmer with a lot of experience and is respected for his opinion.  IF a newbie on here respects what he says and takes it as gospel then that, in my opinion, is the wrong advice.

What I'm trying to say is, those commercial farmers need to place themselves in the mindset of a smallholder before they offer the advice.

Who thinks that culling a sow after an average litter of four is the correct way to go or would you give her another go?

[SallyintNorth]

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to explain all that more fully, Captain.  I get where you are coming from now. 

[robert waddell]

if only every thing in life was as easy to explain as the the captain has done yes there are good farmers and bad ones just as equally as there are good and bad smallholders  or any trade and profession
stevie g is not that far of the mark with his perception if you had a ewe that never produced a lamb over two seasons would you keep it just for the sake of trying  or a milk cow that every year milks for two weeks and dries up
all good and well those people that can afford to keep lame ducks and lost causes with no need for income or return  but with smallholding or farming there have to be practicality's

[TheCaptain]

Robert, again, different set of circumstances!  Sheep invariably chuck 1 or 2 lambs, no I would not keep a ewe that didn't produce after two seasons or a cow that dried up after two weeks.  I absolutely agree there is a need for practicality - after all I'm as tight as a ducks arse and I completely agree there are good and bad farmers and Smallholders, although I think that bad Smallholders rapidly go out of 'business' as it's chuffing hard work for little return where as farming on a commercial scale I think can hide with a bit more ease.

I have a sow that was AI'd 3 times with no affect.  Commercially she would have probably gone to the slaughter house, however, because of various factors such as my other sow being on her own, I have deep love for my pigs, the options to buy in another gilt of carrying age, buy in a weaner gilt to keep to carrying age or even buy a proven sow would have been more costly (emotionally/financially/time) than giving her a go with the boar.  Which is what we did and she chucked nine on her first litter and will hopefully go on to produce more large, fine litters.

We'll agree to disagree - Stevie G is way off the mark with that advice.  Had said sow produced only produced 1 piglet each time, now that would be a different matter.

[robert waddell]

i can understand your reasoning with your pig and have been in a similar situation with a boar and gilt (boar grew up with the gilts and one settled no problem the other just not interested last chance put to the tamworth boar and success)  it costs a lot of money to get any pig to farrowing no matter what route you take