[mudboots]

Hello - new to pig-keeping and new to the forum...just wanting to ask a question.
10 weeks ago I bought a couple of weaners from the place I buy pork from. Great pork and the pigs always look well, so thought that would be fine.
But the weaners arrived with lice, which I had to treat, and now a worm count suggests threadworm, which must have been there originally since they're now on land that's not been used for livestock for at least 20 years. Obviously, I'll have to deal with that too.
My question is this : are worms and lice par for the course, or does it suggest that the farm I bought from isn't up to scratch?  Frankly, I'm put off buying either more meat or more weaners there, but this may be an overeaction. Does lice + worms necessarily mean the animals are kept badly?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

[Fowgill Farm]

Most people selling weaners jab for worms/lice etc before letting weaners go. I do.
These people aren't necessarily bad breeders but sometimes when times are hard corners are cut to save money like jabbing, when you collected them how did the stock look, generally well kept, clean (as pigs can be), well fed, happy, these are the things that tell you whether animals are being kept as they should be. Might be worth mentioning it to the people you got them off just in case they're ignorant to the fact their herd has a worm & lice problem. if you suspect them of bad pig keeping/welfare then they need reporting to your nearest animal health for the sake of the animals, you can do it anonimously.
HTH
mandy

[supplies for smallholders]

Hi,

I would hazard a guess that the farm was a small farm and not part of any type of "Farm Assured" scheme?

The schemes have quite stringent checks on health, welfare etc.

I would also suggest that worms are perhaps excuseable - as without carrying out checks as you have done, the farmer wouldnt know - he may have a regular woming programme, but if the worms are in the soil the pigs will just get re-infected and the levels build up until the next routine worming, when the cycle starts again.

Lice on the other hand, are noticeable and the farmer should have spotted these and treated them with a lice powder prior to selling them to you.

Small (none scheme) farms are very much like smallholdings - in that as long as the regulations are met, there is very little done to enforce management and welfare - most smallholders do care and try to look after their animals well - but often on a budget so perhaps some things get "overlooked".

A lot of people seem to condemn large commercial pig farms, but in a lot of cases they have systems in place we can only aspire to, such as:

- Constant access to food and water
- Housing that is functional and warm
- No Castration, tail docking, nose ringing or tooth clipping permitted
- Regular scheduled vet visits
- Regular Scheme checks
- Regular FEC (Worm egg counts)

Anyway, thats enough of my rambling, and Dan will be proud of me in that I didn't place a single commercial link in this post  

[mudboots]

Yes - that's right, a small farm...and I have to say the pigs look well to my untrained eye. Certainly, the farmer seems very fond of them, so maybe just a case of cost-cutting, or of wanting to avoid too many treatments. I'll get some worming medicine...and then hopefully everything will be fine. Next time I buy weaners, I'll know to check for lice!

[robert waddell]

lice is more common in housed animals than ones outside 
worms are or tend to be forgotten about unless you either see them or are aware of there existence
SFS all animals should have CONSTANT ACCESS TO WATER and sufficient food to maintain them    also small farms can join the high welfare schemes that are available through QMS in Scotland  BUT AT A COST i think £300 or there about

[HappyHippy]

Slightly off topic I know, but with regard to the QMS scheme Lillian (or Robert ?) I had looked at the registration forms, but if you castrate piglets you're not allowed to join  Such a shame, I would've liked to join 

[robert waddell]

it only consists of an extra stamp on the carcase when killed David chlad was going to get it subject to farm visit then told no we are not doing it  we still don't know the true reason behind it
(well we do but cant print it )



it all comes back to that old chestnut welfare but you can mutilate there ears
more to do with them and us i suspect but anyway would it be cost effective?

[Beewyched]

Slightly off topic I know, but with regard to the QMS scheme Lillian (or Robert ?) I had looked at the registration forms, but if you castrate piglets you're not allowed to join  Such a shame, I would've liked to join 

  I would have thought it was kinder to castrate the boys (properly, at the right time etc etc) than leave them entire with the possibility of scrapping & taking lumps out of each other - WELFARE STANDARDS 

[HappyHippy]

Yes, I agree 
On the one hand it's fine a requirement to notch (or double tag, but that's no good for 'show' pigs  ) pedigree pigs - which, imho is unnecessary - there are so many other options. But on the other hand - if you want to sell pedigree pork you have to run the risk of taint and fighting (and pregnancy if you can't/don't seperate) because you can't castrate as per the welfare code recommendations ?
Mental ! That's what it is 

[supplies for smallholders]

Hi Lillian,

SFS all animals should have CONSTANT ACCESS TO WATER and sufficient food to maintain them

But I know that - but how many smallholders can say hand on heart that they never find the water trough empty when they go to fill it.

Anyway, Im not being drawn into a debate about what should or shouldnt be considered as welfare. The facts are (in england) that if you wish to join such a scheme then you have to jump through the hoops of treating the animals in accordance with the scheme rules.

Also a fact that any well intentioned person can buy livestock (after getting CPH / Flock / Herd numbers) and more or less treat the animals as they wish through neglect or simply a lack of knowledge as there is absolutely no regulation, with the exception of the possibility of a visit from animal health at some stage.

Thanks

[gavo]

But as has been shown time and again large commercial "certified" units have plenty of welfare issues the initial checks may be stringent but follow up isn't necessarily as good as it should be, so the problems affect a larger number of animals than on a small farm. I know welfare issues occur on small farms aswell[before anyone shouts ] Having had many vet students through our doors who have told of real horror stories in many places i  question the usefulness of certification/accreditation.

[Mrs pig]

Commercial units that are accredited have 4 vet visits per year to ensure they comply with strict welfare regualtions.  They can also recieve at any time, a  visit from AH, just because the EU states that AH in members states has to perfrom a specified number of visits.  If they are found to be flouting any welfare regualtions by AH they not only have to put it right with immediate effect but they could stand to loose 5% of their single farm payment - which can equate to a lot of money.  The main flouting of animal welfare regs in commercial units was usually the lack of suitable enrichement, many had chains and the regs suggests this is not enough.

Once pigs have gone to slaughter the vets at the abattoir have to watch every single pig and pull out any that are lame, badly scratched eg fighting, tail bitten etc.    And if the welfare of the pigs is compromised the vet will contact AH so they can arrange a visit to that farm within 48 hours to address the situation, so for a commercial farmer he is constantly monitored for welfare and to state that this is not the case is incorrect. 

Just because a pig loves outdoors - this does not always equate to "high welfare", pigs outdoors take a higher degree of maintenance and vigilance from the stockperson -anything less may result in a very low welfare situation!     
       

[gavo]

Yes i agree they are supposed to be regularly checked but rules are made to be broken [and that is an attidude i've seen] having used a large commercial slaughter house not all the animals were in a satisfactory condition but hey i have only seen it with my own eyes  what do i know?